Tanking heroics

[Gutboy]

Well, it looks like the only way I'm going to pile up the badges and nethers I need is to step out of my OT shadows and MT some actual heroics. 

But since I've managed to get this far without ever stepping into one, I don't know what I'm in for. Aside from some different mechanics on boss fights, which I'll have to read about as they come up, what other adjustments are important to make in heroics? Are the trash fights similar to Kara or Gruul trash in difficulty? Will I need to do more multi-mob tanking? (I know that starting out I won't be able to mark mobs intelligently, but I hope that will come in time.)

I realize that if I can get the heroic tanking routine down, I can really help a lot of guildies in their runs; I just need some help getting started.  Thanks all...

GB

[Arcdelad]

multi mob tanking is the best skill any tank can pickup IMO...its a lot harder for a warrior or druid than a pally, but id say most times you wont have the adequate amoutn of CC to just tank one in a heroic...mobs are indeed equivalent roughly to kara trash...500-4k damage depending on the mob for trash...

[Shadowwolf]

Think Kara but with more adds. Most Heroics need good CC and you have to be really really really quick on picking up straggler mobs so they dont 1 shot party members on a Heroic. Theres less people to work with so if someone dies, its hard to recover unlike a raid where its not a complete disaster till 2-3 and on upward start to drop.

A lot of the heroics seem to be hell on trash and not so bad on bosses. Arcatraz is the best example of this. Every single trash pull in Arc should drop a badge for god sake its that awful, but the bosses arent really that bad, save the first one.

Basically the main thing with heroic instance tanking is you need to keep aware of all the mobs in play at the time and grab any that get lose of CC and threaten to kill someone or cause chaos. That and doing everything in your power to mitigate dmg done on you, Thunderclap, Demo Shout, etc.

[khader]

As Shadow and Arc said the biggest difference between Kara and Heroics is that you will need to do more multimob tanking.  Sadly  Blizz has shown zero love for warriors for multimob tanking.  Druids have a tiny bit but Blizz has showered the love on pallys in this area.

You have to quickly assess the DPS members of the group to know how quickly you have to get enough threat to hold mobs.  Healers are going to get aggro but you know this going in.  The DPS is an unknown especially in pugs where some don't have Omen or some such and like to see the big numbers flash by as they unload on mobs with every nuclear attack they have.  T-Clap and Demo Shout will help get initial aggro but not very effective keeping a mobs attention when they are blasted by some rank 11 fireball 3 or 4 times.

Look at tank guides. www.tankspot.com has lots of information.  Fortifications is an excellent warrior tank guide.
Find an attack rotation you are comfortable with and can generate enough rage to support. remember - it is a guide not a rule.
Taunt is not an opening attack ever.  Save if for when you need it.
Use Bloodrage to get initial threat(wee tiny bit) and rage to use a high threat move on a single mob, T-Clap on multiple mobs.
Get 2 sunders on first kill then get at least 1 on the others as fast as possible.  After this you'll vary depending on the DPS capability of the group.
Devastate > Sunder Armor for threat generation.
Remind folks to run to you if they get aggro.  You, the other person and the mob all run at the same speed.  The other person and mob have a head start so you'll never catch them if they run away. If you have Boar Speed enchant this is still true.

[Trismus]

IMO, bring a holy paladin and have them Salv everyone but you (obviously). Also, Improved Revenge helps alot.  What I usually do is conc blow the first mob (if they're stunnable), then sunder another and slam the third, then sunder/revenge the first, slam the second, sunder the third a bit, finish sundering the first, kill first, slam/revenge second, sunder third a bit, then back on second, kill second, kill third, then pick up CCed mobs.


Heroics also vary greatly in difficulty. Heroic ramps has only a single hard pull, the rest is relatively easy. Heroic MT on the other hand has a ton of shadow damage that will stomp you if you aren't careful.


-Tris

[khader]

Points in improved revenge are better spent else where.   Many mobs are immune to stun/cc.  Its also unreliable as a means of cc as its only a 45% chance with 3 points  - which are better spent in other talents for mitigation or threat generation.  If threat caused was increased it would be a better talent but chance to stun makes it another bleh warrior talent.

Revenge becomes increasing less useful as gear increases and rage generation becomes an issue.  With less rage available it makes using Shield Block difficult as it mitigates more damage and further reduces available rage.  Without using Shield Block you'll see fewer opportunities to use Revenge.  You're dodge and parry will also increase but again the more attacks mitigated the less rage available.  This applies to normal and heroic instances and even Kara trash.

As to the attack rotation, with only concussive blow on the mob you won't have much threat on it.  Couple of crits or some nuclear attack by the DPS and the mob will no longer be paying attention to you.  Things can quickly go badly at this point.  Depending on your gear you might have difficulty with having enough rage left to use a high threat attack on the first mob with you're rotation.  Opening with a high threat attack on primary target and stunning another mob is safer as you should be the only one hitting secondary targets with the DPS focusing on the primary target.  If possible its good to save concussive blow for stunning a mob that is after a healer/dps or using as another interrupt on casters should Shield Bash be on CD.

[un4]

Might also want to warn you DPS that you'll be hopping between targets.  We generate threat pretty quickly, so you don't get back to the original mob quickly, we'll get smeared.
It also gimps rogue/cat druid DPS as we rely on combo points and cannot swap targets as easily and effectively.

[Shadowwolf]

Your opening on mobs should really be Devastate or Shield Slam. Typically if you have to tank more than 1, using Thunderclap right after the first Devastate or even Thunderclap before the first Devastate will make sure the healer doesnt grab aggro on the adds right off the go. This is where Improved Thunderclap in the Arms tree is helpful, so moving points from improved Revenge to there would be more beneficial like Khader said. Its rare you get a mob thats stunnable in heroics and raids, and even if you do, stunned = little to no rage gen for you, you want them hitting you or it makes life harder.

Throwing 3 Devastate's on the main target as quickly as possible while spamming TC on the adds is usually enough to start working on generating a little more threat on the adds, 5 sunder/devastates would be ideal though, but to be safe or if your healer is spamming heals either because you are taking loads of damage or thats just how they heal, you will want to throw 1-2 devastates on each of the adds to insure they dont run. You dont want to take your focus off the main target for too long or if you have high dps in your group youll lose aggro even with 5 sunders. The downside of TC is it only affects 4 targets and your current target is 1 so that leaves you 3 others, which you dont get to choose if there is more than 3. Keeping Demo Shout up on all of them also helps and it also generates a little more threat as well. Primarily Demo Shout helps keeps you from getting beat down so hard the healer has trouble keeping you alive.

As a warrior tanking multiple mobs, unless its really bad and im taking too much damage, I rarely if ever use Shield Block on trash. It sucks rage and blocking doesnt give me much returned rage so id rather take a little more hits to make sure I keep the focus of aggro on me. Its easier for a healer to heal 1 person a lot, then heal 4 people and themselves a lot which can quickly happen if adds get loose.



Theres a good writeup on the Nihilum website about a good way to spend tank talents here http://nihilum.mousesports.com/forum/raiding-grounds/12005-new-warrior-tanking-specalization.html though some of the suggestions are a little dated as this was written I think right after BC, also I think you need to register for free on their forum now to view it, but its a good writeup and it explains basically everything Khader and I have talked about here.

Basically you want points outside the prot tree in in [spell=16466]Deflection[/spell] (Arms) and [spell=12666]Improved Thunderclap[/spell] (Arms) if you can, as well as [spell=12856]Cruelty[/spell] (Fury) if you can spare them, then you're basically on your own to fill out Prot as you wish, though some talents are wasted for Raid/Heroic tanking in prot, and others, while they seem like a nice idea, are better spent elsewhere as well.

[spell=16466]Deflection[/spell] = Well this is a given. Increasing your parry rate is less dmg you will likely take from the mob/boss.

[spell=12666]Improved Thunderclap[/spell] = This will do more damage to the mobs overall, and also add more threat to you when used since it also increases attk time. The added bonus to this also is that it will help further mitigate damage done on you by multiple mobs so healing will be a little easier as well.

[spell=12856]Cruelty[/spell] = Crit attacks equal more threat. Its really that simple. The more you crit with white attacks or specials, the more threat you have in your favor.



Some better left avoided talents in prot are basically Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder Armor, Improved Revenge, and Improved Shield Bash. Improved Bloodrage is nice, but its not worth skipping out on some of the other things in Prot and the 3 outside prot talents I mentioned above. Ill detail a little why the ones in prot I just mentioned are better left unspent.

[spell=12807]Improved Disarm[/spell] = You are rarely going to encounter any bosses that are disarm-able. Same for mobs, many mobs according to blizz dont use weapons, so you cant rip thier arm off for a short time sadly. Also, the cooldown on that ability is so long in comparison to the duration, its really of little use. 10sec on no talents, and you can get 3 more seconds with max talents...OooOooo...its rather useless. 13sec of a little less damage and then having to wait 47 seconds to use it again is silly. A lot can happen in 47 seconds, on trash mobs the first focused target usually dies before then.

[spell=12811]Improved Sunder Armor[/spell] = I know this *seems* like a good talent, thinking "less rage for sunders, I can get them in quicker", sadly, its not much of a rage break to be of much use either. Prior to patch 2.3, maybe it was of some value, only because Devastate didnt also apply Sunder to the target before that patch so you basically had to use both abilities. Now its a bit bleh. Saving yourself 3 rage with max talents on this isnt going to be a whole lot, especially if you put your talents in Focused Rage which reduces ALL your offensive abilities by 3 rage, not just sunder/devastate. Also...on a pull...people should be allowing you to build aggro. This means you should have plenty of rage to get ample attacks in on the target(s) before they start DPS, if they arent, they are being dumb. Saving yourself 3 rage when you are getting hit by 3-4 mobs or a boss isnt going to be of a whole lot of concern so its a better spent elsewhere talent. Also, if the dps in your group is that impatient, saving a little rage in sunders/devastate isnt going to help you much because chances are they wont be paying attention to threat anyhow and youll end up chasing things around =P

[spell=12800]Improved Revenge[/spell] = Khader basically detailed why this isnt worth the talents. I mean if you have talents to spare, sure why not, but again, stunned mobs dont generate rage on you, even if its only 3 sec and a "chance" to be stunned, its still time you arent generating threat.

[spell=12958]Improved Shield Bash[/spell] = This is pretty much useless in PvE for the most part. Most of the time when you are using this ability, its on mobs that are silence immune but interruptible. Plus, if you shield bash it throws any abilities in that school on cooldown anyhow, mobs included, so 3sec is usually shorter than the cooldown is anyhow. Ive rarely if ever seen a mob try to recast a heal that was bashed immediately after I bashed them. Usually they wait another 10-15sec to try again if at all.

Have a peek at my talent tree on my warr if you like: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Avynne



Boss fights, the attack rotation I use is a little different than trash mobs. Typically I devastate to 5 sunders, then I spam Shield Block (as a warrior you have to as once the charges are used or it fades you become crushable till its re-applied) and use Devastate, Shield Slam, Revenge when its available and Shield Block, Devastate and Shield Slam is on CD and I keep renewing Thunderclap and Demo Shout on the boss provided I have no CC to be worried about breaking, if there is CC near and I cant move the boss, I just keep Demo Shout up and also keep a renew on Commanding Shout. Tank-n-spank bosses thats basically it, that and keeping them faced away from the group or positioned properly if need be. As a warrior though, we get a bit shafted on our main block ability as it only has 2 charges with talents and 5sec cooldown, on high dps bosses, sometimes those 2 charges get used up before that 5 sec is up again to renew and also you might get stunned/feared so any time [spell=2565]Shield Block[/spell] isnt up on you, you are in danger of getting a crushing blow landed on you. Thats why on raid/heroic bosses its imperative you spam that ability to keep the level of spike damage done to you as low as possible.

[spell=12809]Concussion Blow[/spell] I save for mobs that run from me, mobs that aggro on another person and taunt is maybe on CD, or to interrupt mobs with abilities that technically arent "casts" and [spell=29704]Shield Bash[/spell] is useless on. Those Blood Elves in Botanica that do that Arcane Dmg Spin thing are a great example of this, Shield Bash doent work, but Concussion Blow is great. Also, those Robots in Mech, works great to use on them if you missed interrupting the [spell=36582]Charged Fist[/spell], they cant do extra damage to you when stunned =)

[Trismus]

The best build is 44 prot 12 arms 5 fury in terms of aggro generation. IF mobs are stunnable then conc blow on the first one + devastate or slam will be good, and give you 5 seconds to throw some devastates/revenge up on other targets before returning. SHeild slam produces the most aggro, followed by revenge, followed by Devastate. Imp revenge is not worth getting for the most part, however some builds can use it effectively.


-Tris

[Shadowwolf]

Devastate will generate more threat than revenge and you need to dodge, block or parry for revenge to be usable. Having it as a counted on lead-in attack is unwise imo because of that large variable. Also, again, stunned mobs dont generate threat/rage and using your Conc Blow early could screw you later when you need it. 45sec CD on Concussion is a long time to go without it if something goes wrong.

The only time I use revenge on trash is if I dont have enough rage avail for Devastate or Shield Slam and I see my threat waning off quickly due to a Rogue stunlock or something. Yes its high threat, but its not higher in comparison to Shield Slam or Devastate which dont rely on passive ability procs to be used.

Everyone has their own style of tanking, but imo, that rotation is too risky and full of too many *if's*.

[Trismus]

The actual total threat generated by Revenge is higher then Devastate, according to http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/


Also, from my personal experience tanking, 99% of the time revenge is available to be used, especially if you're using shield block. The ideal rotation for skills is Sheild Slam, Revenge, Devastate, then a second devastate if GCD allows for it, then repeat the cycle. You can substitute things such as Thunder Clap or Demo Shout for devastate / revenge.


Also, keeping heroic strike up all the time is awesome if you have the rage for it. That will ensure you're generating a huge amount of aggro.


Practically, I use revenge all the time in instances. I will conc blow mobs when I feel I need to or to keep them from moving in a situation where I might lose aggro and need some time to regain it. It's a matter of personal preference, but the above works for me, and works very well. It's fairly macro-intensive, however.


Also, using a 12/5/44 threat build can help enormously.


-Tris

[Gutboy]

Well having read everyone's thoughts, I'm now more intimidated than I was before.    I can only hope that hitting heroics in Kara gear and with very patient guild members in my group, I'll be able to muddle through a few of them before the expansion comes out...

Thanks for all the advice; I'll be taking it with me back to Warrior Boot Camp.

GB

[Belandand]

If you want a smooth heroic, get knowledgeable people. Unfortunately in many cases, you pick up "the sharpest tools in the shed" during PUGs. My advice, if yu find dpsers/healers that behave themselves in heroics- friend em up and coax them to help you out.