Threat

[usonian]

Here is a bit I posted in reference to a question by Luise in the Schedule forum:

I'll try to explain what I've learned about threat generation and tanking for Warriors Luise.  As Warrior tanks our main goal is to keep the mob's attention on us and absorb as much damage as we can while our teammates dps the bejesus out of them.  Unfortunately, being the best tank you can be means giving up some of the high dps talents that help us in our earlier levels in favor of improving our threat-building talents.  After all, warriors gain threat mostly through special attacks and abilities rather than pure dps.  Here is a list of our threat producing attacks in order from highest to lowest amount of threat:

1. Revenge 
2. Shield Slam
3. Sunder Armor
4. Shield Bash
5. Heroic Strike
6. Cleave
7. Thunder Clap
8. Demoralizing Shout

Talents like revenge, shield slam, sunder armor, and shield bash are all improved by placing points into your protection tree.  Being an arms/fury warrior you still have these abilities (with the exception of Shield Slam) but they aren't doing their max potential threat generation.  Some abilities are also only available while in certain stances.  Defensive Stance is probably the stance you want to be in most of the time when tanking and 100% of the time when fighting a boss.  Let's go over these abilities in a little more detail:

First off, you mentioned Taunt and Mocking blow.  I would say taunt is the most important tank ability as far as controling mobs that we have and should be the first ability you use when grabbing aggro.  It is instant, costs zero rage, and you can reduce the cooldown from only 10sec to 8sec with two points in the protection tree.  It will instantly pull any enemy you Taunt to attack you for 3-6 sec (not exactly sure) giving you time to build up as much hate as possible.  Mocking blow is ok, but it requires battle stance, costs 10 rage and has a 2min cooldown.

1. Revenge - Causes the most threat but can only be used after an enemy dodges, blocks or parries.  You should ALWAYS hit this ability when it becomes available.  3 points in Imp Revenge (protection) gives this ability a 40% chance to stun the enemy for 3 seconds but it won't work on bosses.

2. Shield Slam - This causes a lot of threat, does a lot of damage and has a 50% chance to dispel a magical effect.  It's the last ability in the protection tree.  It also costs 30 rage which is a lot and the dispel isn't all that important.  I would only use this to dump rage after you've built up your initial threat with sunders.

3. Sunder Armor - This may not cause the most amount of threat, but stacking it 5 times and lowering an enemy's armor will definitely piss it off enough to keep you high on it's hate list.  3 points in Imp Sunder (protection) will reduce the rage cost of this ability by 3 to only 12 rage.  Sunder is the most consistent way for us to hold on to aggro which is why, in my opinion, only the MT (main tank) should be using this ability on the MT target, otherwise it's effectiveness is reduced.  This is most important on bosses when you need them to stay on you as much as possible.

4. Shield Bash - Another very important ability specifically against casters.  It only costs 10 rage, has a 12 sec cooldown and will stop an enemy from casting a spell/heal and prevent them from using another spell of that class for 6 seconds.  Casters don't like this at all, especially when you have 2 points in Imp Shield Bash (protection) giving you a 100% chance to silence them for 3 seconds.  Again, the silence won't work against bosses.

5. Heroic Strike - This is a debatable method of consistently holding aggro since it will only activate on your next swing but it does cause a decent amount of threat.  I would suggest using this after building initial threat and between any other important abilities as a filler.

6. Cleave - Won't do a huge amount of threat but it will keep some aggro on more enemies at once.

7. Thunder Clap - Ehh, I rarely if ever use this since it requires Battle stance.

8. Demoralizing Shout - Works for pulling initial aggro on a bunch of enemies as long as nobody has attacked them first.  Of course it's good for decreasing enemy attack power as well.

Another way to get more threat on all of your attacks is by putting points in Defiance in the Protection tree.  5 points in this talent will increase the threat all of your attacks do by 15% but only while you are in Defensive Stance.

Weapon choice also improves your ability to increase threat.  A faster 1h weapon will anger the enemy more consistently then a slow 2H weapon.  The increased speed also helps when trying to get off more Heroic Strikes or Cleaves.  Using a 1H also allows you to use a shield which gives you the ability to shield block, shield bash, and shield slam as well as making you survive longer.

I know a lot of what I've said about increasing your threat-building ability requires a shift from your current build but it should give you a greater overall picture of the Warrior as a Tank who can hold on to as much aggro as possible.


So, now that I've gone over the basics, let me get back to your initial question:

"When the boss runs off, is it better to change to Berserker stance and charge after him, then back to sundering- or is it better to just try to keep in the one stance and catch him slower, but get to sunder a bit quicker?"

There are 2 situations in which the boss will run away from you:

1.  You simply didn't have enough time/rage/etc. to build up enough threat and an uber ranged DPS group member has done so much damage from a distance that the enemy has decided to run towards him/her.

2.  You're fighting an enemy, mostly warriors, who will charge other people in the group randomly.  Bloodlord Mandokir in ZG will automatically charge people who don't stop what they are doing when he is "watching" them and your threat level doesn't matter.

In the first situation you will have to chase down the enemy and Taunt them to regain threat then keep it using sunder, revenge, heroic strike, etc.  In the second situation the enemy/boss will most likely come back to you since you "should" be first on the threat list and he will want to keep beating on you after he's had his way with the other person.  If he doesn't come back, you need to go taunt again.

Whew, that's all I have for now, hopefully I've answered your question and given you a little better understanding of threat.  As always all opinions are up for debate and the information I've given is not the definitive warrior guide, just what I've learned so far.

[dharq]

Excellent post Usonian.

2 other things to add:

1) You also have an aoe taunt on a 10 min cooldown. Works wonders for bosses with tons of spawns. Also works well as an emergency option when your taunt is on cooldown and you lose aggro.

2) +Defense gear -- Every 5 pts of defensive gear effectively raises your level by 1. There is a diminishing returns on it, but generally speaking, +50 defense at lv60 puts you at approximately lv70 for hit calculations... Ever notice how at lv60, you can tank lv50ish mobs with ease? Even better, notice how you can run SM (lv30-40 mobs) with nearly zero risk?

According to everything I've read, this is related to your defense being so much higher than the weapon/attack skill of the attacker. Higher defense increases block rate, parry rate, dodge rate, armor, and decreases chance that you'll be hit critically and decreases the chance of a crushing blow landing on you.

I can't emphasize enough how much you need +def gear as a MT. This is the one major reason in the game that feral druids (and to a lesser extent paladins) simply can't tank many of the highest end bosses--no +def gear. No other gear in the game does as much for you as a MT. It also helps to keep aggro (since the healers aren't having to spam huge heals on you as frequently), and it really makes a difference in mana conservation for healing classes since they can afford a slightly longer break between heals they cast on you.

+armor and +hp gear is fine for trash mobs and such, but when it comes to bosses (especially lv ones), nothing will help the MT and the healers as much as +def gear. I'm not saying armor and hp aren't important, just that they don't make as big of an impact as +def.

[Arcdelad]

well I didnt want to tank your high end raid anyway....so there 

[Shadowwolf]

lol,

Actually, you did OT in ZG last week, we only had 2 warriors that run, haha.

[Arcdelad]

lol....oh yeah....well...Jan made it easy to do though following behind her... 

only one more week of these icons...got the thanksgviing ones lined up?

[Shadowwolf]

These icons will go away when Hallows End is over. I have the holiday ones for the next few holidays on standby.

[Kothnok]

Actually, druids do have some gear with +def on them (I only know because Koth has them)...
[wowitem]Unyielding Maul[/wowitem]
[wowitem]Redoubt Cloak[/wowitem]
[wowitem]Force of Will[/wowitem]

322 Defense... almost equivalent to a 65th level druid. =)

(note: the first 2 items are from Dire Maul, Tribute Run)

[Krieg]

I think there is an armor kit you can use too to raise defense.

[Shadowwolf]

[wowitem]Core Armor Kit[/wowitem]

[dharq]

True, druids can get some +def on their items... they can get +12 from the [wowitem]core armor kit[/wowitem] alone.

They can get somewhere around +50ish if they go with all the blue/epic +def gear they can find, maybe slightly higher (around +70ish) if they forsake everything for +def. But compared to a warrior who gets around +120 def from their epic sets and the same rings and such, and can get close to +150 if they forsake everything for def gear, feral druids just get the short end of the stick.

I'm not saying druids can't tank. I've seen it done well, and done it myself. I'm just saying we don't have the lasting power of warriors or even paladins because of the overall lack of +def on leather items.

[Genoism]

what order of abilities do u guys usually spam after 5 sunders? as protection speced

[usonian]

If you're speaking of tanking a boss Geno, it varies a bit depending on the situation but here is my general strategy for holding aggro on a boss:

I usually start out with a taunt to make sure the the boss has my undivided attention.  The beating angers me enough to gain rage quickly which is when I commence spamming sunder as fast as my finger can click (the 3 rage deduction with imp sunder helps get these off faster).  You can usually get up to 5 sunders quickly when your group is holding off but keep an eye on that taunt button just incase.

After the sundering there is a general hierarchy of abilities that I follow: 
1. Taunt - I'll hit this everytime it has cooled down, which is every 8 sec with imp taunt.
2. Revenge - Hit it everytime it pops up after a dodge, parry or block.
3. Shield Block - For extra endurance use this when you have a chance and help out the healers.
4. Shield Slam - You'll be building tons of rage so dump 30 when this is available.
5. Sunder Armor - These will eventually fade so keep an eye on them and reapply when needed.
6. Heroic Strike - Might as well get rid of that extra rage.

I'm never really spamming one ability unless it's taunt to pull back an errant boss.  You'll eventually get into a rhythm with these abilities as you get a feel for cooldown time and rage consumption.  Of course you should always be watching for occasional spell casts/heals to halt with a shield bash.

Hope this helps.

[Genoism]

i plan on starting a warrior once the expansion is out. Aside from my pally tankin experience i have like a lv 24 ish horde warrior so i dont know that much but boss tanking yet.
What do u usually do if there are multiple mobs runnin around(non boss situations)?

[usonian]

Hopefully if you are in a group or raid situation, each mob is assigned to someone in the group to either tank, sheep, sap, banish, etc.  In this situation you have it pretty easy and you just focus on holding one mob down until it's dead and move to the next one.  Let's say for some reason you need to keep the attention of more than one, here are some things you can do:

1. Demoralizing Shout - This reduces enemy attack power but it affects multiple mobs at once.  If you use it before anyone else has attacked a mob it will pull those affected by the shout to you.  This is only good as an initial grab and they will easily leave you with any amount of outside aggro.

2. Thunder Clap - Slows enemy attack speed and works the same way as Demoralizing Shout for an initial pull on a group who has not yet been attacked.

3. Cleave - After that initial pull, cleave will attack two mobs in front of you and do a good job of holding onto them, but only two.

4. Challenging Shout - This is basically an AOE taunt that will pull all mobs within range to you for a few seconds.  It is on a 10 minute cooldown and should really only be used in emergencies when a situation gets out of hand.

5. Whirlwind - This is a Berzerker stance only ability so it shouldn't really be used in a tanking situation when you should be in Defensive stance but solo it will do damage to 4 enemies within an 8 yard range.

These methods are good for holding a large amount of mobs for a short time but you should never really be expected to hold on to more than two for an extended period of time especially if damage is being done to them.  It is possible to alternate a taunt>sunder combination on maybe three, but again your ability to hold that many is dependent on your party's awareness to not attack.

[dharq]

What I also try to do, and it works well with 2-3 mobs, is to taunt the first, tab-target the second and toss on a sunder, tab-target the 3rd and sunder, tab-target the first and taunt, rinse repeat blah blah blah.

Works well as long as you're not having to compensate for massive damage on any single target. If so, then you might have to toss 2-3 sunders on before switching targets. It also helps to toss out revenge or shield slam or shield bash when they become available too...

I almost never use heroic strike though.. even though it does good damage, it costs me 3 rage more per use than sunder does, and rage is pretty precious at times.