Twilight Guild Forum

[blizzard author=Ghostcrawler link=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3300854]Threat revisited
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog post about our vision for how threat should work (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/1693171). Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we're planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works.

Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.

That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:

Why not have threat?

Throttling

• As I said in the previous blog post, it's not fun to feel throttled. It's not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It's fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it's not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.

Tanks are busy

• I'd also argue that our encounters aren't really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.

Threat stats aren't fun

• We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can't parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)  
• We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren't. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn't very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it's usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group's progression.

We don't need a more complex UI

• We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say "super compelling gameplay" you can mentally replace that with "fun.")

Dungeon Finder

• I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn't necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).
• However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it's the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That's not an issue of skill. It's just numbers. It's also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it's just not a lot of fun for anyone.

So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.

It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see:

• Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.]
• In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Long-term changes
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.

That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.

This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot of gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.


Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.[/blizzard]

Wow, what a huge change! (http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/08/16/dev-watercooler-ghostcrawler-discusses-massive-changes-to-threa/)

[blizzard]Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:

   The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
   Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.
[/blizzard]

Read the whole thing.

Edit:  This isn't going to happen for 4.3, it's being hotfixed this week! (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/191000/threat-change-43-discussion-thread#post39):

[blizzard]Please note that this change is being made with a hotfix this week, not 4.3. [/blizzard]

It looks like the tank class changes are what will come with 4.3

Woohoo!  Just in time for people who are trying to be noob tanks like me.  Seriously though, it's like they're going back on their "dungeons are hard" rant that they released in early Cata.

Wait so basically if the tanks generate more threat easily doesn't that take away from having to pay attention to your threat as a DPS. Either that or are DPS really that powerful these days that no tank can out threat them?

I may have been out of the loop a bit just doing dailies randomly, maybe a random instance or two along with life and other things but this just doesn't make any sense to me. I almost would take this as an insult to my threat gen ability as a tank... if I were one that is.

Someone is going to have to explain why this would be such a needed change in the mechanics of the game, cause right now to me it sounds silly.

its trying to teach dps a lesson and give tanks time to generate more of a threat instead of rushing in like they do and commence beating

^ actually a little of the opposite...they're trying to encourage that now, because often you'll have fights where you simply can't afford to delay dps, and on those fights dps (I know this so well  :-\) have a huge chance to pull aggro. personally on my druid I'm nearly capped in expertise and hit-with those two stats in hand dps NEVER pulls threat from me on bosses, and only rarely on trash...seems like a "whatever" change to me really, though I suppose I'll be able to reforge some of that expertise into dodge now.

Yes, they are basically making it (and the change is live now, supposedly) so that once the tank grabs a mob, DPS will have a very, very hard time pulling aggro.  Part of the problem they identified in making this change is when a geared DPS is paired with an undergeared tank - the DPS have to throttle way back and some classes don't have aggro dumps, etc.  So what they plan to do is make threat a non-issue and then make tanks focus more on mitigation through the use of more active abilities and mechanics.

Personally, I think it's a good change - threat was always kind of a clunky mechanic IMO.

oh wait i musta read it wrong its actually increasing and not decreasing that is awesome

Well here is what the real reason they are doing this is.

Tanks have had to focus so much on survivability these days because of the healing changes that they can only afford to focus on a few primary stats. Because of this, Mastery for tanks has become the most important stat to focus on, and as such tanks cant balance things like expertise and hit in the mix, its simply too much stats to throw in when you have to survive more than do damage. So, change number one was a few months ago where a tank taunts and interrupts never miss. This was done partly to help balance the 10man heroics with the "interrupt or die" mechanics being so fondly used in fights by Blizz in Cata, but also, because tanks kept complaining they missed taunts in having too many stats to focus on where hit couldnt come easily.

Now...since almost every tanking class virtually ignores hit altogether with the taunt change, a lot of their hits are missing on bosses, causing threat to lapse a bit behind DPS who are having to be hit capped to be effective and they only miss that RNG 1% of the time. Because of this, DPS is pulling off tanks pretty easily on high intensity fights where DPS counts, and Firelands is an instance where damn near every fight is a OMGDPSNOW fight where they cant really afford to pull back to allow threat to catch back up.

So basically this change is a fix for a few problems and they can sugar coat it and spin it however they want to, but the history of changes thus far shows what it really is. The first problem is the healing changes, since they made it so tight around healers having to balance mana and kept up a lot of the Cata fights with tons of raid damage, they needed something to help "undo" that screwup without completely changing healing again because they wont admit to screwing up healing (and lets face it they did, if they went back to BC healing it would have been fine but they normalized all heal classes to behave almost identical and from 80-85 all healing spells quadruple or more in cost but only double in power).

The second thing they are fixing is the fact that they have too many stats for tanks to have to worry about and there simply isnt enough gear slots or itemization slots on gear to fix it.

Finally the last problem is subscriptions. They are losing people by the droves from WoW. This is another change to make instances easier so the "commoner" can play it easily and not actually have to have them nerf content again.

In the end this is a solution for them to change how the game works significantly without having to admit to screwups on anything else to try and save face. They seem to find it more important to not have to admit to making mistakes these days than anything else.

So what youre gonna get as an end result here is lazy PUG tanks and lazy PUG DPS because now neither one has to care about what they do, essentially the "problem" they claimed about healers in Wrath being lazy and just spamming one spell they now shifted over to tanks and DPS instead. This isnt a slight on tanks or DPS classes, but now people just wont need to care about a lot of things they previously had to on fights. Yes its good for raid fights where DPS has to jump on things ASAP, but overall, with the LFG tool (which I blame for killing a lot of what made WoW a fun game), PUGs are going to be even worse than before.

I added Ghostcrawlers full explanation to Anti's post for everyone. To me, it reads like all his others, backpedaling and excuses to hide the real reasons.

booo .. im really becoming more and more disappointed in blizz .. lazy lazy lazy way of trying to fix their issues ..

As far as tanks holding aggro vs. DPS, it's a lame math thing for scaling.  They make bonus +threat modifiers as static values, tanks can't keep up at the end of an xpac.  If they do it by scaling values with damage, you end up either forcing tanks to give up needed survival stats (bad) or make it impossible to hold aggro (worse).  The end-goal would presumably be for a tank of X iLvl to hold threat from a DPS of X iLvl when both are at the same skill.  The problem is, that isn't happening, especially in anything with AoE of any kind, mostly due to the ramp-up of Vengeance and the Vengeance mechanic itself (non-warrior offtanks get the shaft on this).  This is something they could balance, either by giving tanks more damage or making bosses not hit as hard so tanks could balance stats.  Giving tanks more damage leads to other balance issues, and making bosses not hit as hard makes the encounter "less difficult" to them.  So, we're stuck with the lazy solution of making threat a non-issue, again, like it was in Ulduar/Naxx before DPS scaling kicked tank static threat mods to the curb and made some people hold back for entire fights.