We as a guild spend a lot of time and energy on watching Omen, KTM...talking about things like feign death, cower, and soul shatter, and how tanks can hold aggro better.
I think, though, few of us truly and deeply understand how threat is developed and how the mechanics of the game, ie all the math, works to make threat and aggro gain do what it does.
Attached is a link to a GREAT site. IMO everyone should read it..it sheds a lot of light on why threat does what it does, what moves, attacks, talents, etc gain or shed aggro and such. This was written by the person who developed KTM threatmeter.
http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php
I KNO ALL ABOUT THRET. I HITS TEH BAD MAN WITH MANGEL AND I HAS THRET.
I read the site Arc- it doesn't seem to give Mortal Strike any mention at all. Does this mean it has no or little threat? Also it says that crits don't produce extra threat..Did I interpret that wrong or is that true?
So I can Mortal strike with crits and not cause extra threat? (Not that I cause much threat at present :))
Ill dig into mortal strike luise and post when i find an answer (ive never played a warrior myself, so im not sure).
What it means by crits not producing extra threat is that a crit, just by virtue of it being a crit, does not add any threat bonus onto the attack. HOWEVER...the extra damage caused BY a crit does add threat, meaning a crit will generate more threat than a non-crit due to higher damage, but not due to it simply being a crit.
Some of the key points I took from this are:
- its much harder to steal aggro from the tank if you are ranged as opposed to melee. I think hunters, moonkin, mages, warlocks, etc should always try and be as far away from a mob as possible or at least out of the melee zone. If themob moves close to you, do the tank a favor an reposition out of melee.
- Feign Death is by far the best aggro reducer in the game - it wipes you completely from the aggro table. I have seen so many hunters pull aggro lately, but given that you have FD, this really should never happen. Even if you hit FD well before you got to even 90% of the tanks aggro, it would reset you and put you so far down on the list you wouldnt even have a shot in hell of stealing aggro. It shouldnt even mess with your damage production if thats what you are worries about - I know I can FD and arcane shot almost with the same click on my hunter...you dont have to stay on the ground for long, or even hit the ground if you time it right - just let FD clear aggro and then keep go balls out DPS.
- Taunt puts the taunter at the level of the person who is holding aggro. This means we should be able to switch off tanks really easy, especially in fights like the Prince in kara where the MT is prone to death. If you are a warrior or druid OT on a boss fight, you need to be ready to taunt should the MT get in a bind or dies...there isnt any excuse for letting a boss run rampart if you are there ready to pick it up with a simple taunt.
- Cower / Feint...since these take a set amount of aggro off your total, and not a general reduction (like blessing of salvation) a cat druid or a rogue should be spamming it whenever the CD is up to chip away at your threat number. Yes, we do have innate threat reduction, BUT we are also melee, meaning its easier for us to steal aggro, especially since we are criting with high damage attacks all the time.
Those are just a few key points off the top of my head..again, everyone should read that article. It really will help us all run smoother raids and 5 mans.
Nice read Arc. Very informative. One thing i learned from it, is why soul shatter doesn't always work. Its considered a shadow spell and can be resisted from what i read.
Fantastic information for a new druid like me, Arc. Understanding the mechanics of threat will help us all, of course...but especially those of us who are new to tanking and off-tanking. I picked up much useful info that I didn't have before. :)
Thanks again for your efforts!
Someone told me that Arc is a tank?
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Very nice read, I can honestly say there were a few things I didn't know before.
Quote from: Buzan on September 27, 2007, 07:46:45 AM
Very nice read, I can honestly say there were a few things I didn't know before.
I think so too, there might be some creative ways of pulling. For instance using a high aggro tool like searing pain, then use the warrior's taunt to get a nice spring board on aggro. However the lock would have to hold back a bit before starting to dps.
Quote from: Arcdelad on September 27, 2007, 05:56:16 AM
Some of the key points I took from this are:
- Taunt puts the taunter at the level of the person who is holding aggro. This means we should be able to switch off tanks really easy, especially in fights like the Prince in kara where the MT is prone to death. If you are a warrior or druid OT on a boss fight, you need to be ready to taunt should the MT get in a bind or dies...there isnt any excuse for letting a boss run rampart if you are there ready to pick it up with a simple taunt.
Prince and most other bosses in TBC are immune to taunt so this won't work. Due to the mechanics of the prince fight it is practically impossible for an OT tank to take over should the MT die. It may be possible in the very early part of phase 1 but after that the DPS group will overtake the OT on the threat list. A fury warrior or feral druid could put probably sustain enough DPS to stay high enough on the threat list but then trying to tank Prince with DPS gear would last only a few moments.
QuoteTaunt puts the taunter at the level of the person who is holding aggro
Taunt puts you at the top of the aggro list for the duration of the taunt, not indefinitely. When the taunt wears of you'll return to your previous level of aggro, plus any gains you've made while the taunt was active. So you can't be at the bottom of the aggro list, use taunt, and then have aggro over everyone else for the rest of the fight.
It is VERY difficult, almost impossible, to keep someone just below the Main Tank's aggro for boss fights who could also remain a viable tank if the MT drops. Not only do you lose a DPS spot for a possible backup tank, but the healers have to be able to switch targets after they've been focusing on the MT and be able to save the OT from massive damage. There are plenty of other things to focus on to beat bosses rather than having a 'backup tank' IMO.
he is immune to taunt?
hehehe...whoops :P guess i wasted that attack...
hard to see the "immune" flash up when the big guy is so in your face...at least you can look through his legs to see infernals...
According to that info, you get threat equal to the person who has aggro and after the three seconds it DOESNT lower...
I agree that you waste DPS keeping on OT on staff for a wipe...but I am also thinking of kara runs where we have a prot pally and a prot warrior, but we only need one of them to tank a boss. I ran arena long enough with a prot. warrior to know prot specs trying to DPS arent doing much damage, so losing their DPS is negligible. With a druid thats not the case - my spec allows me to tank well or DPS with the best of em just by switching my gear around...
QuoteAccording to that info, you get threat equal to the person who has aggro and after the three seconds it DOESNT lower...
I'm not sure how true that is, I want to see where they got the information from or how they tested it. Even if it is true there are a number of reasons why it doesn't help with bosses:
1. Like Khader said, most bosses are immune to taunt.
2. It would put you at the level of the highest person's aggro, which would not be the tank if he/she is dead. If that person is a DPS class, good luck keeping up after taunt wears off.
3. Being the backup, you would have to switch to defensive stance / bear form and get the taunt off before the target goes bananas on your DPS group, which with bosses is usually a one hit, one kill situation that happens in the blink of an eye.
4. A backup tank wearing Def gear 'just in case' is a waste of a DPS slot you can't afford on most boss fights. Swtiching from DPS to Def gear also adds more time to the equation.
5. ALL DPS would have to stop attacking the instant the MT dies to let the OT pick it up and build enough excess threat to counteract the DPS needed to down the boss, meaning tricky healing target switches, more mana dumped into healing, and time wasted waiting for aggro.
The amount of coordination required to pull off a tank switch like this even IF taunt worked on bosses is so ridiculous that it shouldn't even be considered an option worth strategizing. Unless Blizz specifically designs boss fights for tank switching (a la Kurinax), we're better off focusing on what else to do correctly instead of relying on emergency clutch miracles.
No offense intended:)
Theres actually a few bosses that require tank swaps. The elemental boss, Hydross the Unstable in SSC requires it for example. Unless you have 1 MT who can swap out resist gear on the fly which seems hectic to even try. He goes from frost magic to nature when hes moved and he has to be moved due to a debuff he stacks on the raid. I honestly dont know if he can be taunted or not but id imagine he cant. Seemingly most of the bosses Blizz designs with the need for tank swaps usually have some sort of vulnerability or are susceptible to taunt of some form. Evwn some bosses that dont need tank swaps but ditch aggro after some event like that Ogre boss in SL sometimes have a friendliness to taunt abilities.
That sheet is slightly inaccurate tho as most people are playing guess work on what and how aggro generates from. Blizz wont admit clearly anything, so its all experience and guesstimations, but theres some things listed that arent true anymore or not listed at all. Rockbiter Weapon for Shaman doesnt increase threat anymore, that was removed a few patches ago. Conceivably it could still somewhat do it only because it ups the weapon DPS, but the overall unwritten increased threat it used to hold is gone. Also, I didnt see it there, but Mana Regeneration seems to draw a small level of aggro too. There was a few times where mobs aggrod early somewhere and anyone still drinking got aggro if the tank didnt pick it up quickly or no one else hit it, it would b-line for the people drinking. Ive actually seen this happen a few times now. I think regeneration in any form, healing or otherwise is threat building.
LOL drinking generates aggro? I thought that only happened in bars ]:D
FYI - don't use Bloodrage for a shout if you're waiting for the Prince anywhere in the Netherspace. I did it once to buff the group before the pull and that prancing pony came straight for me. Talk about bugged mechanics, geez.
Quote from: Usonian on September 27, 2007, 09:46:46 AM
LOL drinking generates aggro? I thought that only happened in bars ]:D
HAHA
Resting of any kind will generate threat. Eating, drinking, doing whatever that causes a benefit to regen (unless the ability specifically has a modifier to reduce it) will cause threat and/or increased aggro radius. Several other MMOs do this and I'm not surprised WoW does too. In older games, there was no concept of "in combat" or not, so you were able to drink/eat while the party fought (in some, merely sitting was the same as drinking, so just sitting caused threat). The designers wanted to keep up the illusion that eat/drink/sit/rest was something you don't do in dangerous places and placing a threat on such activities discourages that as it attracts "wandering monsters" or a smack from one a buddy is fighting nearby.
A brief history of something you probably never cared about. =)
A little druid input on offtanking-
When I'm running kara in B group, felani's usually main tanking. The hallway after the Curator is pure hell for ty, those arcane guardians play rough and faceplant him several times. In that hallway I stay in bearform, and pretend I'm tanking. Since I'm not getting hit, I'm rage starved and well below Felani's threat, but I manage to keep ahead of most people. Nef and Seth I'm neck and neck with. If felani takes a dirtnap, I'm poised to grab that sucker before he goes and kills our dps. Works pretty well.
Im sure this guide isnt perfect...this is the guy who made KTM, and we all use omen now, so that should be some indicator anyway :)
BUT...it does have great info in it, and it puts you in a frame of mind to start thinking about threat differently. Most players I think just know - tank has aggro, I hit mob, maybe I steal aggro. And thats all they know. I want people to start thinking about aggro and threat in more complex deeper ways...judging by the posts and views here I think we have a great conversation going thats only going to make our raiding / 5 mans easier...
uso...why would you offend me? becuase you disagree with me? pshhh...cmon man :)
Quote from: Kothnok on September 27, 2007, 11:01:14 AM
Resting of any kind will generate threat. Eating, drinking, doing whatever that causes a benefit to regen (unless the ability specifically has a modifier to reduce it) will cause threat and/or increased aggro radius. Several other MMOs do this and I'm not surprised WoW does too. In older games, there was no concept of "in combat" or not, so you were able to drink/eat while the party fought (in some, merely sitting was the same as drinking, so just sitting caused threat). The designers wanted to keep up the illusion that eat/drink/sit/rest was something you don't do in dangerous places and placing a threat on such activities discourages that as it attracts "wandering monsters" or a smack from one a buddy is fighting nearby.
A brief history of something you probably never cared about. =)
This brings back some memories...saw 50-man raids wipe in EQ when a single person sat down to meditate and it pulled mobs from all over.
Quote from: Arcdelad on September 27, 2007, 01:30:29 PM
uso...why would you offend me? becuase you disagree with me? pshhh...cmon man :)
That, in a nutshell, is why I love this guild. :)
I am one of those who thought about aggro as Arc said and this thread definitely has me thinking differently now. Thanks to everyone for their imput. And I never knew that drinking and/or eating increased your threat or aggro range. I'm assuming that includes using First Aid. Explains a lot, that. ;D
Y'all are a great source of knowledge and help!