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World of Warcraft => Class Discussion => Druid => Topic started by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 09:17:40 AM

Title: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 09:17:40 AM
So I've spent a considerable amount of free time on this subject because after 3.0 and WotLK, I noticed my performance as a Balance druid in instances was faltering some. The standard practice prior to 3.0 as a Moonkin was basically spam Starfire on bosses, Wrath spam on trash. Since then, a lot has changed for the spec and it took me a little bit to figure out a decent rotation as well as hammer out a viable spec that works well for DPS.

I perused a lot of the major forums on the subject, and in my reading I learned that a lot of people basically dont have a clue what they are talking about. Just about everything I read and tried verbatim, didnt work. Because of this, I had to be careful about what advice on these boards I listened to and what advice I ignored. I think I finally got something workable down, so I decided it would be a good idea to share it with everyone else who is Balance as I noticed that 3.0 and WotLK has basically had the same effect on all our guild Moonkins. Most of us are basically chickens with our heads cut off when it comes to what spec and rotation to use in 5-man and raids (no pun intended) and so I hope to maintain this thread to resolve that and bring Moonkin DPS back up to where it should be.

Please remember that these are only suggestions based on my own trials and experiences in trying to improve my own DPS. You can take or leave any of the advice I give here as I am not preaching to be a Balance druid expert by any means, only that I've spent a good amount of time looking into all this and I believe the information I have come across will prove invaluable for anyone planning to go Moonkin.

This is a thread covering Balance spec and how it pertains to PvE content only, most specifically groups and raids. I have not done much with PvP content since 3.0 and I really dont intend to anytime soon, also I would imagine most of the suggestions here wouldnt be too applicable within PvP situations. Additionally, Solo play situations are in a similar situation, most of what I list here would apply to Solo play as well, but some talents and suggested practices may not be ideal for solo questing/play and you'll have to be the judge of that yourself.



Spec's and Talents

To start off, Im going to cover some of the major talents to look out for that I believe are important in DPS output within PvE content. Over the last few weeks, Ive tried a lot of Balance builds, even more so with leveling. I believe I have finally found a build viable for PvE content in Instances, Heroics and Raids.

[attach=1]
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbziIoIdhAuMhZbxcuo (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbziIoIdhAuMhZbxcuo)

The basic layout of this build is 56/0/15 as shown above in the screen cap and with the link.

Now to detail some of the main talent choices and my reasons for choosing them. To start, Im going to go down the few spillover talents within the resto tree first and work my way back to balance only because theres only a handful of talents within the Restoration tree.

Restoration (15 points)


Beyond this tier in Restoration, the talents basically only pertain to healers, so its not worth the effort to discuss these when applied to Moonkin (Balance) spec. If you are looking to do a hybrid build of sorts for PvP you might want to look at them, but for PvE purposes, the only really semi-beneficial talent further in this tree for Balance might be [spell=17116]Nature's Swiftness[/spell] which given the 3min cooldown, the application for its use becomes very minimal and not arguably beneficial. It would also require an additional 6 points to be spent within the Restoration tree which would greatly disadvantage you from more beneficial talents within the Balance tree.

Balance (56 points)

Since this tree is the main tree for this spec and I've selected a TON of talents, Im going to start off by outlining what I chose and why for this build, and then at the end cover the talents I skipped and why. This way you can look at my experiences and reasons and judge for yourself what you think would be worthwhile for yourself based on your play style and what you see as valuable for yourself.


Sidenote:

[spell=57849]Improved Insect Swarm[/spell] - For this talent to be worthwhile, I found you need to max it out. Sadly, that takes 3 points which can be spent elsewhere for more versatility, however, if you decide to skip out on [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] and [spell=48514]Gale Winds[/spell], this can be a VERY good alternative to those 2. If I wasnt taking those 2 talents instead I would most definitely put max points into this talent as it benefits a solid rotation greatly. Again, this will depend on your desire of talents and style of play. This would be a better option to the 2 other talents I listed if you are going strictly for a pure DPS build and looking to min/max your output. A build that looks like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIsIdhVh0hZbxcuo (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIsIdhVh0hZbxcuo) might be something to try then.



Balance Unused Talents

Im going to outline the talents in the balance tree I did not choose and why so that you can make an educated decision based on my experiences and your own as well as what you see as beneficial for yourself in your own play style. Im not insulting your choices here if you have these talents and find them useful, just that in my trials and errors with experimenting with builds, Ive found good reason to avoid these talents which I intend to outline for you so you can weigh out the cost/benefits.

[spell=57810]Genesis[/spell] - Honestly, I tried this in a Balance build a while, and since removing it and placing the 5 points into [spell=16818]5/5 Starlight Wrath[/spell], Ive seen better returns on my DPS. This talent seems more geared for a Restoration healing build as this will only affect Moonfire and Insect Swarm damage if talented and those 2 spells while a key part of a good spell rotation should not be the primary method of attack. Your Wrath and Starfire spells are still your primary casts so this talent is somewhat a waste for a good solid DPS spec.

[spell=16836]Brambles[/spell] - As Ill discuss further down this list, this is only applicable if you select the [spell=33831]Force of Nature[/spell] talent which for solid group/raid DPS I believe is a waste. The side effect of this to stun targets when Barkskin is active is also mostly for PvP and Solo grind only. Most times this isnt going to be of much help in raids or groups unless you pull aggro, and if you do, you're likely going to die anyhow. The added bonus to Thorns and Entangle Roots is also mostly for PvP and Solo usefulness only. As a leveling talent, this might be worthwhile, but honestly at 80, for group and raid DPS which is what your primary function is likely going to be, this talent is of little value.

[spell=16880]Nature's Grace[/spell] - This talent can be useful depending greatly on gear. As a new 80 and even if you manage full T7/Naxx items, I still dont see this as being that much of a huge value to DPS output. Fully talented with 3 points this is 100% chance to proc, however without a high crit rate, this isnt something of much worth since thats the trigger for this bonus. As you improve gear and your spell crit goes up, this might be a viable talent to look into, however you'd have to pull talents from elsewhere for it which honestly I dont see being a good idea. This talent seems more tuned with a Restoration healing build where it shaves a half second off Regrowth, Nourish or Healing Touch which is a nice bonus for healing since its proc rate is helpful regardless how little or often it occurs. With a DPS build, for this to be effective, this would have to be proc'ing nearly constant and I think 3 talents are better spend elsewhere until you get a higher crit rate for spells. Once your gear improves, you could look at adjusting you spec to something similar to this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIoIdhVuMhZbxcuo (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIoIdhVuMhZbxcuo)

[spell=33602]Improved Faerie Fire[/spell] - To be completely honest, I think this talent is garbage. To be worth anything, it needs to be maxed out and 3 points into it, I saw very little benefit to it on long term use. Also, casting FF during a spell rotation is going to hurt your DPS some. Yes, the benefit to the raid casters is nice, 3% chance to hit is a good thing, however there are other classes with similar abilities which make this talent somewhat redundant. The 3% chance to crit is the garbage part. Its so unnoticeable that you would be better off spending these 3 points elsewhere. If you are lacking spell hit and you are noticing your DPS fall because of it, this might be an alternative to try and offset that while you procure better gear, however, again, theres other talents and spells by other classes which will do the same so its iffy. Prior, this talent was 3% hit overall, both spells and physical, since 3.0 however it was struck with the nerf bat and its raid viability and value isnt so hot anymore. If you have extra talents to spend, by all means, but this is not really something to go out of your way for.

[spell=33831]Force of Nature[/spell] - Everyone loves the trees as Balance, but they dont fit in too well with solid DPS on groups and raids sadly. The long cooldown as well as the fragility of them as "pets" which dont receive any added avoidance to AOE nor are they easily controllable ends up making them pretty useless in a group setting. They've become more of a Solo/PvP bonus now pooled with [spell=16836]Brambles[/spell]. I tried it for a while, 3min is a long time and most bosses have some form of AOE that needs to be avoided and these things usually end up dying before they can do any real damage to the target because of it. In a Solo setting they are invaluable on hard elites or emergency situations when Innervate is down and youre low on mana, but other than that, the PvE uses are quite limited. Managing them during spell rotation as well as managing the cooldown is just too much to be of any solid value in group/raid.

[spell=53201]Starfall[/spell] - Yea...this...is kinda crappy. It seems cool, and it looks pretty when used, but its usefulness is limited. It becomes more of a pain to manage than being useful. Its hard to gauge its radius of effect, ive had it aggro stuff yards away that I really didnt need nor want aggro'd on me, the high mana cost and long cooldown also dont make for a solid spell. In PvP, most specifically Battlegrounds, the DPS outweighs Hurricane in that respect, however the 3min cooldown on it makes it limited in PvE whereas Hurricane has no cooldown. Its a nice novelty thing to play with, and even has some usefulness in Solo grinding, but its pretty limited as spells go and hardly worth the talent point for it. Youll get more use out of [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] in the long term. This is also "around the caster..." so that means you basically need to stand in the middle of whatever you want to hit with it which is just not always wise or practical in PvE.
Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 10:37:47 AM
Spell Rotation's and Practices

Im going to try and outline a general spell rotation I've found works well for sustained DPS in instances and you can build on it from there. Please bear in mind that a lot of this will be dependent on talent specs and also have a lot to do with your current gear set as well as the kind of latency you normally play with in addition to situational use, and by situational I mean some bosses or some fights might limit your ability to use any kind of "standard" rotation due to various obstacles, immunities, etc.

I've tried a lot of different rotations over the last few months since 3.0 and I've settled on the following rotation for good solid sustained DPS:

Now, results of this might vary, if you are usually playing with extremely high latency, you may want to remove [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] from the rotation and just leave in Moonfire. If you have gone with the [spell=57851]Improved Insect Swarm[/spell] talent however, you should keep it in the rotation because of the added bonus it gives to your Wrath casts.

Basically you repeat the above rotation throughout each individual mob you are currently targeting to kill. One thing to note is that if [spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] or [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] have not yet expired on the current target, you can simply skip those steps. Basically they need to be renewed when they expired and not spammed as a regular cast. You need to treat both of those spells as a DoT and not a primary attack spell as Moonfire does most of its damage over time, the initial hit isnt where the value is, especially considering the mana cost associated with it.

Normally you can work through the rotation once without having to renew Moonfire or Insect Swarm until the 3rd pass through the rotation, so your casting sequence would look something like this:

Now, some suggestions I've seen say to alternate casts of Wrath and Starfire (Wrath, Starfire, Wrath, Starfire...etc), which I've tried and the results were kinda bleh. Others have also suggested to change the rotation of Starfire and Wrath around from what I have listed so its reversed if you play with high latency where the sequence looks something like 2 Wrath's then a Starfire. Honestly, I dont see the advantage of doing that only because its the same casts, the order is just reversed and you're throwing in more initial damage toward the mob quicker than if you open with the longer Starfire cast. My suggestion is to stick with the longer cast up front as you'll be less likely to over-aggro on the initial cast sequence if you open with a longer cast spell. Additionally, I open with [spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] for the main reason that I am still using [item]Idol of the Unseen Moon[/item] and so I'm using Moonfire to basically trigger so that my other subsequent casts benefit from that proc should it go off.

You can open with either Insect Swarm or Moonfire in any order, but you should put both at the start of your rotation before any of your primary damage spells not just if you have the [spell=57851]Improved Insect Swarm[/spell] talent, but to make managing them as a DoT easier. The basic principle should remain constant where you cast 2 Wrath's for every Starfire, whatever order you put them in is moot when it refers to DPS.



Managing Eclipse

Here's where it gets a little tricky. If you went with the [spell=48525]Eclipse[/spell] talent, managing when it goes off is going to be key to whether or not it works to your advantage in DPS. Using addons like SCT and similar to monitor your buffs is going to play a crucial role in how well you manage this talent. Its benefit is only as good as how well you take advantage of it when it goes off.

Basically, when Eclipse proc's, it can do so in 1 of 2 ways. Either way is triggered by your spell criticals with Wrath or Starfire. Both triggers look similar, its basically an image of an eclipsed sphere above your head, but they are different in color depending on what triggers it.

Wrath spell criticals will trigger Eclipse that will increase your Starfire critical rate by 30% for 15 seconds. When it goes off, the image is basically an eclipsed moon (bluish in color) both over your head and on the buff bar like shown:

[attach=1]

Starfire criticals will trigger Eclipse that increase your Wrath damage by 20% for 15 seconds. When that version goes off, its an eclipsed sun (orange in color) both over your head and on the buff bar like shown:

[attach=2]

Both proc's are accompanied by the same sound which is almost like a "whoosh" noise with a slight thundering behind it.

Now, the key to this is basically using the abilities that are getting the bonus for that 15 seconds of duration. What this means is that your normal spell rotation needs to be put aside temporarily till the buff ends. So, if you get the Starfire bonus from Eclipse, you basically should be spamming Starfire for the next 15 seconds to receive the maximum bonus from the buff. If you get the Wrath bonus from Eclipse, you should be spamming Wrath for the next 15 seconds to maximize that buff.

The biggest issues here is that you need to be able to react quickly enough to benefit from this buff when it occurs. Basically keeping an eye on your spell crits and your own self buffs will help you take full advantage of this but I wont lie, its hard to do at first. Once you get used to it however, you'll start reacting based on the sound alone. You'll basically know what spell you just cast that crit and automatically start spamming the other spell that benefits as soon as you hear the sound this buff makes.

Again, this is rough to do at first and it will definitely take some practice and experience to get used to and good at but its not impossible. If you are however on high latency connections when you play WoW, I wouldnt suggest going with this talent only because its heavily dependent on maximizing the buff time and latency will greatly affect how well it works for you.

Dont forget to resume your normal spell rotation once the buff ends. Its very easy to get caught up in the moment and continue to cast the same spell over and over even after the buff is over and also forget to renew your DoT's on the target.



Using Typhoon Properly

A.K.A. knowing how not to piss off the MT. [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] is a handy spell, but I've seen it abused quite a lot. As I said in the talent breakdowns, its definitely a spell that can mean life saving or on the flip side also create a wipe situation for your group. Knowing when to use it in a group setting is key to it being the benefit it can be. To some extent, most of the situations I outline here could also apply to soloing as well. Basically with this spell, it wasnt designed to be spammed, which is why it has a moderate cooldown, and knowing when the right time to use it is comes with experience.

Basically, this spell knocks things back that arent immune to the mechanic. In my travels, I've learned that the knock back portion of this spell is tied to whether or not the mob is rootable. So basically if you can cast Entangle Roots on it and it isnt immune, then more than likely it can be knocked back by Typhoon.

[spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] SHOULD NOT be added to any regular spell rotations in group/raid. I cant stress this enough. In addition to being a heavy mana sink, its also not a good idea both because of its longer cooldown and also because of how much threat and chaos it can create. How you use it soloing is entirely up to you, but again, I would strongly suggest not making it any part of a regular attack only because its range is sometimes hard to gauge and you can often aggro mobs you ordinarily wouldnt have if you had kept the cast to yourself  :-\

This spell is primarily good as an "OMG" panic save your butt spell or as a moderate substitute to Hurricane in some situations. Because of the damage this can do to groups of mobs and its ability to crit, its sometimes a better alternative to casting Hurricane when bits of AOE are necessary. Small, low health mobs that need to be burned down quickly are heavily susceptible to this and thats when this spell shines the most.

In situations where this might come in handy for a life saving situation, instances where perhaps the healer or other range DPS have managed to pull aggro on some mobs somehow, you can position yourself in a way where this spell can actually be used to not only knock the mobs back off the people who have aggro, but also closer to the tank to allow them to grab them up.

Why you shouldnt spam this spell:

Basically this spell is a pain in the ass for tanks. When you knock back a mob away from a tank, you risk knocking it back enough where aggro range is reset (see: Omen 2 Guide (http://forum.twilightonalex.com/index.php?topic=4608.0)) and it can cause havoc with a tanks threat build, especially when you have fights where DPS might be pushing the very limits of aggro. Also, its just a hassle, tanks dont need to be running around any more than they need to and this spell just creates more of that unnecessarily.

The spell cast interrupt effect of this spell is secondary to its knock back. Its basically an after effect of the knock back. This means if the mob is immune to being tossed around, then using this spell to try and interrupt casting isnt going to work.

This spell is just outright hilarious in PvP and also, if you manage to pull aggro on a mob, this spell can be used to buy the tank time to get it off you by pushing it back. Ive managed to time this with an immediate [spell=53308]Entangling Roots[/spell] cast basically preventing the mob from hitting me entirely till the tank can grab it.



Managing Omen of Clarity

This is another big learning curve for Moonkin DPS. Prior to 3.0, [spell=16864]Omen of Clarity[/spell] only was triggered from physical attacks, meaning you had to go run up and beat on stuff to get it to go off. This is no longer the case and it goes off quite a bit now on just about anything. Ive had it trigger off buffing all the way to cooking food.

Managing this bonus buff is the hard part and sometimes can become a challenge when you become focused on a fight. It also throws complication in on any spell rotation you have working. Basically you can handle this in 2 ways.

First, which would be the most efficient use of it, would be to cast your next most mana intensive spell when it goes off. Now to do this, you would again, like I discussed about Eclipse, need to be closely monitoring your self buffs for when this thing goes off. AS SOON AS YOU FINISH CASTING the next spell, this charge gets used. That means that if you dont watch it and catch it in time, you can burn it up on a Wrath cast in no time at all. My suggestion on this is that you basically alter your rotation when this goes off to accommodate Starfire. So basically the situation would look something like:

Now the other way, is just to let it play out which "works" but its not the best or more efficient use of the talent. What I mean by let it play out is basically just keep casting when it goes off unless you are between casts and can actually adjust for it. You'll still get the mana savings from it, it just wont be the best and most optimal savings you can get. On trash you can probably get away with this second method more and not notice the impact, but on Bosses and long fights, I would suggest optimizing it like I outlined above.



Moonfire and Insect Swarm as DoT's

To optimize both [spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] and [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] casts, you need to treat them like DoT's. Spamming either isnt going to have any real effect and is basically just wasting mana. The full impact of both spells is felt when they run their full duration. Basically with a good level of spell damage, both of these together can account for a large portion of DPS, especially on long fights like bosses. On trash and short duration fights, you likely wont notice much as mobs will seldom live through 1 or 2 renews of either, but bosses is where its make or break.

As I outlined above, both should be included in any standard spell rotation, even if you dont end up using the one I listed.

What I would also suggest is that you get 2 Glyph's pertaining to Moonfire specifically.


Theres another Glyph thats been suggested on a lot of boards to maximize DPS as well:

[item]Glyph of Insect Swarm[/item]

Basically I'm torn personally on this one. I rather like the reduced chance to hit on mobs and bosses as it makes the life of healers a little easier, especially in raids. However, if you are looking to maximize your DPS output, this would definitely be something to look into. The mana cost of [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] is really low, and so this Glyph basically optimizes the spell incredibly as a DoT upping your overall damage output. Again, this is one of those things where you have to decide what you look to achieving more, DPS or Flexibility.
Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 10:37:56 AM
This is a work in progress and I intend to add and alter it as needed. Please feel free to comment here and debate, again, my suggestions are just that, suggestions and in no way should they be taken as "expert" advice. No one can honestly claim to be an expert in the game no matter how much time and effort they devote to it so please use this advice with your own experiences and hopefully it will help you come to settle on your own build and practices.
Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 10:38:04 AM
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Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 10:38:11 AM
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Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 10:38:19 AM
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Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 06, 2008, 10:38:28 AM
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Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Fab on December 06, 2008, 06:18:54 PM
Thought I'd pinch here a bit.

I've played this spec pretty much since day 1. I've also read 100's of different forums topics on Moonkin DPS rotations and "the best" PvE builds. I also pride myself on trying to max out my numbers in any raid situation.
Much of what Shadow has said here is, right-on-he-button accurate, but I wanted to comment on 1 or 2 minor things concerning the build you have set up.

1) Eclipse- I've looked in the forums with those crazy number crunchers, who make insane excel speadsheets on this stuff, and as of now, they've come to the conclusion that going 3/3 in this talent, will yield a dps increase (albeit minor) in an ideal raid situation (ie- one where you really don't have to move much; like Patchwerk in Naxx or Brut. in SWP)
ALTHOUGH
The over-all concensus on this talent is to skip it, according to some resident moonkin experts (look up Murmur <--very intelligent on this subject matter-I'll try to find the link on his number crunching). In theory/on paper it does yield an increase, but you'd literally have to be a computer to get thatresult every time. In the end, it's just too much work, for little if any return in dps. (although the image of it proccing is nice!)
Shadow said she'd discuss this talent in more detail, and how you should play with it if you specc into it, so I'll leave that for her.

2) Skipping Nature's Grace- In my opinion, you just don't skip this. There was an uproar when they upped it to 3 points, but that was to deter the resto druids from taking it. That point alone shows that this talent was essentially made for moonkins. I've yet to see a build from a reliable source without it. There may be builds out there without it, but in all honesty, you should have it 100% of the time.

The make up for these 3 points, I would drop Owlkin Frenzy and put them into Nature's Grace. Owlkin Frenzy is meant for PvP. You should not be getting hit as a ranged caster in a raid situation very often for it to proc.
In bg's/Arena, you'll be getting pounded, so only then does it really become useful, and proc like mad from my experience.

So, in conclusion, Eclipse could be dropped for Trees, +1 in master shapeshifter (+2% damage on al spells) and 1 point dumped somewhere else. Andsimply swap Owlkin Frenzy for Nature's Grace.
My Ideal Build (completley PvE):


http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIscdhVzRuZbxcub




Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 07, 2008, 03:51:56 AM
I believe unless you have a decently high crit rate, Nature's Grace isnt going to give you much of a value because its not going to be triggering often enough to be of a considerable DPS increase. You can easily get the same value on a more constant level with spell haste which seems to be on just about everything these days in WotLK. Spell haste will not only improve cast times, it will reduce the GCD which will allow you to get more casts in that will affect your overall DPS. Nature's Grace doesnt affect the GCD on all spells, only Wrath and from all accounts it also doesnt stack with haste. The value of this talent increases as you improve gear and get better spell crit, but honestly I think results can be debated. In my use of it, I personally have not seen enough of a value from it freshly at 80 to keep it right now. As my gear improves I may change that but for the moment I find better value in other talents.

As far as Owlkin Frenzy, its handy in Heroics as I've used it. It goes off quite a lot and in situations of AOE if you dont have a tank, its a free barkskin. Additionally, it procs from aura's and things that dont necessarily damage you but affect you so its value at the moment isnt completely limited to PvP. That could very well be a bug with the game, but who knows. Yes, by nature its designed for being more of a PvP and Solo talent, but again, its up to the individual to decide where to spend those 3 points. If you very well wanted you could take those 3 points and move them to Nature's Grace and see how that works for you looking something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIoIdhVuMhZbxcuo (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIoIdhVuMhZbxcuo)

People can number crunch all they want, the only people I consider "experts" are Blizz and they wont come out and tell people what the ideal build is for Balance for PvE DPS. I believe that personal experience and individual play style have a serious impact on what build works for what people and while there may be a default "template" of sorts from people who claim to crunch the numbers on things, how you play, your ability to react, your latency, gear, etc all have an effect on what build works best for you.

My overall goal here is to give people a jumping off point and explain out some talents based on my experience so they can make an educated decision on their spec. I dont believe any spec is necessarily "wrong", just inefficient, foolishly outlined or uneducated would be the better words. The spec I've outlined above isnt a pure min/max spec because thats not my style, I like to include some flexibility in my builds as well which is what I've done above. I'd imagine a pure Raid DPS spec would be slightly different from what I've put together but the above works for me so thats what I intend to stick with till my gear changes some. =)
Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Kothnok on December 07, 2008, 11:12:50 AM
Quote[wowitem]Glyph of Moonfire[/wowitem] - This is just awesome in maximizing the effectiveness of Moonfire as a DoT. ...
When I considered this glyph before WotLK launched back at level 70, I found that I would be giving up 750 initial damage for 500 DoT damage.  I wasn't worth it as it lowered my overall damage output.  Maybe things change by the time I get to 80.
Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: Shadowwolf on December 07, 2008, 11:41:21 AM
It works better partnered with [item]Glyph of Starfire[/item] where youll see a better return.
Title: Re: Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices
Post by: fallingleafs on February 08, 2009, 02:19:18 PM
Wow now this post appears....

After spending countless hours on about 100 websites looking for moonie info I find our guild seems to be taking the reigns when it comes to theory crafting moonkin style...

Shadow thank you for your time invested into this.  Even at 70 when I thought I was the end all of knowledge to the moonkin you still found ways to correct my thinking.  Now 80 is no different and in fact the theory is all the more intensive.  However I have my own ideas which I have formulated through countless hours of 5, 10 and 25 man instances.  Also the many hours blasting away at practice dummies.

I suppose my story starts about a month ago when Apolla suggested I try a new build which I had been looking at but unsure how to proceed.  Now we all probably can agree that there is not an end all build but there are certainly some talents which must be included and the rest will be an ongoing debate. 

Firstly elitistjerks forums seems like a good place to start as this is a site where gamers seem to have met their inner math nerds but if you can get past the math which isn't easy and probably not 100 %  correct we have an idea what talents are a must and which ones are debated....

Personally I found out my best dps rotation on the practice dummies

is MF-IS-SFX4 rinse repeat....

However I am waiting for Eclipse to proc as my DPS numbers increase dramatically when Eclipse procs and Wrath Crits... 


I tried mixing the rotation with Starfire and Wrath and a few other combination of the two but my numbers weren't getting close to the above mentioned rotation.  It also makes an Eclipse proc all the more difficult to maintain when Starfire is your primary spell and Eclipse procs its a no brainer as you simply need to fire wrath as fast as you can for 15 seconds!

A few things to consider at the time my gear was average at best(Still not stellar) but definitely a lot better. 

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Fallingleafs

I believe my talents are similar to fabs with a few differences on the balance side of things.

I am not ready to give up my trees yet they are my friends!  Tree's are hard to calculate for DPS value simply because we don't use them every chance we can and limit them to boss fights which allow it.  Maybe one day I will drop this talent but for now I am keeping them. 

Dreamstate which i always have used has been replaced by intensity for me.  Now I could always use a little more mana as I seem to burn through it as my haste continues to increase and maybe could come back to Dreamstate I would definitely revisit this in the near future.  I would love to keep this and always think about it when im oomkin towards the end of a long boss fight.

Owlkin Frenzy I have completely removed in favor of natures grace and quite frankly with all the haste increase I am wondering how important this talent still is.  In fact my next build will be figuring out if I will use those points towards dreamstate or owlkin frenzy or maybe a little of both....     AS of now I am leaning towards more mana. 

I have tons of notes and information some good some bad on the subject but now that we have an official thread on this here I would like to see this board as a one stop shop for Boomie info. 

Don't worry Shadow your boomkin brothers and sisters wont leave you wanting more in Raids in fact I think we have a few pretty good ones who have improved as gear has gotten better.  Anyway thanks for starting this thread I feel like we have something to work with now.

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