Dumbing down the game or making it better?

[Arcdelad]

We were kind of having this debate last night in ZA while we were trudging through....here is a great article Uso found about it:

http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/World-of-Ming/Dumbing-down-or-changing-for-the-better/

Comments?

[Lynette]

No doubt the game will be different when WotLK arrives, much like BC changed the original game.  I don't see this as a bad thing necessarily.  Some of these changes will actually make raid composition an easier task for guilds such as ours. 

I suggest folks have an open mind and don't fret about the "nerfs" you perceive.  Plan to research, respec, and try different approaches to find one that fits your style.  Or swap mains to another class. 

Even though WoW is simpler than other games out there, it's still fun to play and has enough complexity to keep my interest for another expansion.

My 2 cents worth ...

[Arcdelad]

I hear the same thing from "specialists" who feel they are no longer needed...pallies feel they arent needed anymore becuase now warriors, druids, and DK's are all competent AOE tanks, so their niche is gone. Shadowpriests feel unnecessary becuase now ret pallies, surv hunters, and (maybe) feral druids all do the same mana regen. Rogues feel like they always have - feral druids keep leeching off their abilities, and why the hell bring a rogue when you can bring a druid that can off-heal or tank as well?

On the flip side, classes like warriors and druids are saying "Finally!" becuase people arent JUST looking for a pally tank for that heroic run...

I think the overall result will be that multiple classes WILL do the same things JUST as well - but they will all have different play styles. I will be able to AOE tank like a pally on my druid, but the mechanics of it will be different, meaning its a different play experience. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes....lynn doesnt like rage tanking - maybe mana tanking fits him well. Its going to now come down to who has the best SKILLS, or who works the best within the skillset and framework of the charachter class, not just which class has an inherent advantage over the others just BECUASE, and completely independant of the player's skill.

On the other end, though, classes are getting TOO similar...now if i want a MS warrior, I can do it on a druid, a rogue, or a warrior....there should be SOME things classes can do that others cant...is that going away TOO much?

EDIT: the article brought up a really great point about passive bonuses NOT based on gear though...if a scrub, brand spankin new pally in all greens can benefit the raid as much as one who has taken the time to gear himself up...thats a huge issue IMO...

[JohnnieRat]

Druids have MS now?

[Lynette]

...and why the hell bring a rogue when you can bring a druid that can off-heal or tank as well?

Exactly ...

On the other end, though, classes are getting TOO similar...now if i want a MS warrior, I can do it on a druid, a rogue, or a warrior....there should be SOME things classes can do that others cant...is that going away TOO much?

One way to look at it is you no longer need a slew of alts to fill a void for raids/heroics.  Now, if priests start tanking and warriors start healing, we may have some issues.

[Shadowwolf]

At first glace I'll be honest some of the changes pending somewhat frightened me. The thought of what seems to be a mass "vanilla-ing" of all the classes and skills made me concerned for what makes each class unique. Ive come to learn though that sometimes when Blizz makes these drastic changes, they look more destructive and stupid at first glace until experienced.

I like the idea of tanks being made more fair in each avenue. Nothing frustrates me more then when I want to do a heroic on my warrior and people shun me in favor of a pally or a druid because they have a gross ignorance of my class as a tank and also because others who have played that class in that role have had a gross ignorance of how to properly play it.

The best change I can see on the horizon is that there are likely to be few if any class specific needs to be met on raids. Nothing frustrates me more than having to have specific classes and specs on raids in order to overcome certain obstacles. Things like the Fathom-Lord fight in SSC, where tanks with a mana bar (Pallys) get hit with his shadow bolt and lose 50% hp, Morogrim, where pallys are needed for the Murlocs and Druids are preferred to tank the boss because he happens to hit faster than the cooldown and duration of talented Shield Block. Hyjal boss 2 where range taunt for the Infernos as well as Exorcism are preferred for the Inferno tank because its a pain for a warr or druid to pull aggro on them once they latch on to someone without an MD assist. These are the nuisances of raiding now that have always been a problem for us because we all like to encourage freedom of play and Blizz locks these encounters into set group composition requirements. Ill admit, pre-BC it was far worse than it is now. Certain fights in pre-BC raids almost demanded specific group makeup or you just simply werent going to be successful.

These changes, along with "raid stacking" where we have to organize groups in the raid based on buffs and auras to make sure we optimize all aspects of the raid. Its frustrating. Id like to give healers the Moonkin Aura as much as the Locks and Mages, but theres that damn 5 limitation of people to a group, and you simply cant bring 4-5 Moonkin to a 25 raid and still meet all the requirements in whats needed because now you're down to 20 available slots. Having to watch you dont overstack melee or the tanks cant hold aggro, or the same for casters. Stupid things like that annoy me about raiding now. Im damn sure, if not for the class demands and the raid stacking, we would likely be a whole lot farther in the game than we are now. Granted we arent slouches by any means and have come a LONG way, but it frustrates me to no end that the only difference between us and a raid guild clearing Sunwell on a weekly basis is the fact that they min/max better and are willing to sacrifice the freedom to play as they want in order to move ahead in the game. I dont like that, we shouldnt have to choose a spec or class based on whether or not we want to raid in this content. Whats the point honestly of multiple talents and specs if you can basically only have one kind to insure success in high end raiding.

These changes to me I welcome and say "finally at long last".

To me, I see these changes as a way for making the game more fair to people so they can experience this content. Seriously, how stupid is it when they design an instance like Black Temple, and only 10% of the guilds in the US are in it. 10% is an incredibly small number when you look at how many players and guilds there are throughout the US. So now you have umpteen manhours of programming and design spent on a raid instance like BT and 90% of your customer base hasnt nor ever really will see it. From a business standpoint, some of these WotLK changes are probably due to them trying to maximize their efforts instead of wasting money. They could stop designing these higher end raids and lose 10% customer base, or they can change the game a little to accommodate the average joe and allow a larger % to experience it.

Will this make the game so easy any shmo can faceroll the keyboard and succeed. No, I highly doubt they would dumb down the game that far because the people who design the game play it as well.

In the 2+ years ive played WoW, every time a huge patch change looms on the horizon, or back when BC was 2 months away, panic like this always set in. Hardcore raiders bitched and moaned about dumbing the game down, casuals rejoiced, and in the end a somewhat happy medium was reached to satisfy both ends. I think with this we will see the same thing. At the same time, whats on Beta isnt always whats put to live. Being on BC beta, I can tell you all that how BC was when it went live was nothing like it was the last few months of beta in many respects. Patches upon patches later, I can definitely tell you its nowhere near the same game it was then.

I dont think they will ever make the game so skillless that any idiot in all greens can walk into a heroic and kick ass in it. Casuals and hardcore would both complain about that and if the game is too easy, people will get bored and move elsewhere to other games. They know this, and they wouldnt be so dumb as to make that mistake because its a business, and their goal is to keep us playing or they dont make money.

I think its best to just ride this out and see what comes first hand. WotLK wont be final until a patch or 2 after its released, same as was the case with BC. Changes are coming indeed, and its for everyone, but this time around its really no different than it was when BC was released compared to original WoW, back when Tier items only came in one flavor and classes were pretty much forced into one spec and style of play if they wanted to raid.

[Air]

Just a fyi on the person who wrote that article.  He's a beta tester for woltk who posts alot on the beta forums.  No one likes him because his posts are always him bitching about something and never offering an alternative.  He just wrote an article about Warriors that was just non-stop BS and was panned by many.  Most people on the beta forums ignore what he has to say, especially the Warriors.

If your using Naxx as an example as to blizz dumbing stuff down, making things easier don't fret.  Blizz plan's to ramp up difficulty fairly quickly on the next raid instance.

Blizz is trying to fix the game so that invites to a raid are based more on a player's skill than on the need for a certain class.

[Gutboy]

Three things that "everybody knows" about WoW:

* The class I play most has been nerfed AGAIN, while all other classes have been buffed.
   (But of course I keep playing it, rather than reroll one of those classes...)

* The game is MUCH simpler now than it was when I started, meaning that it's now full of stupid people who suck.
   (But of course I keep playing it, rather than switch to another game...)

*  And finally, Blizzard obviously has no idea what they are doing, compared to all my ideas about how to make WoW better and more successful.
   (But of course I keep playing it, rather than start my own game company...)



GB