tanking spec...

[Arcdelad]

maybe my threatmeter is broken, but gren, kitty, and capn are always at the top there

unless lynette is in the group..lynn consistently out-dpses gren...

[dharq]

outdps or out threat?

Caps the only one I've ever seen out dps Gren.. (no offense to Lyn, I've just never seen it)

[Arcdelad]

out dps...dont get me wrong...gren and his lockies are PHENOMENOL in DPS...just seen lynn consistently (and very quietly) out dps him in the heroics and such we have run lately...lynn has some great anti-threat tools too, never had an issue with him stealing aggro...

[Shadowwolf]

Pallys were supposed to have gotten some form of "taunt" with the last set of talent changes and spells 2.0.3 series, does that even work and what is it? About the only class ive not been able to get "in to" in this game is Pallys. I havent spent a whole lot of time trying to figure the class out in honesty so thats a lot to do with it, but that class for me is a large gray area, I have to deffer to those who have played one to 70.

[Lynette]

I quit looking at the dps charts more than a month ago because I felt it was negatively influencing the way I was playing my rogue, so I really don't know where my dps is in relation to others.  I can tell you this though...the times that I checked it with all the aforementioned locks and Thingiebob in group, I was behind them all.  I am surprised to hear I've moved up, as I haven't been able to upgrade any gear during that time and I am at max enchants already.  My guess is Kaid's shadow priest is up near the top now as well.  And let's not forget Shadow's druid and Arc in cat form, who both prolly top everyone's dps.

Aggro management is proving to be crucial as we get ourselves deeper into the end game.  As a rogue, I try very hard to not steal aggro.  Now that I have KTM working properly, I try to monitor that at all times.  The trinket from KoT helps immensely, as do timely vanishes.  If I do steal aggro, I can usually survive for 10 to 20 seconds against heroic mobs, provided my CDs are up and a healer has mana.  If not, I am toast.  It also helps to have a solid tank who can maintain aggro, which we have several.

This leads me to the topic at hand - Pally tanks.  I don't know the class very well and have not grouped up with one (as a MT) for awhile now, so my experience is limited.  However,  I tend to agree with Gren on this in that there may not be enough methods for Pallys to maintain aggro in heroics and TBC raid zones, regardless of gear and talents.  I think this is unfortunate but understandable, as Prot Warriors must have some ways to differentiate themselves so they are meaningful.  

[voctovian]

Pally taunt is really backwards.. instead of drawing aggro from a target, it pulls aggro off a friendly target.  Thus, if gren pulls aggro, the pally tank would target gren and cast righteous defense.  It is only effective against 3 mobs though, and if the person who has aggro continues to build aggro, its effect can be broken in a couple of seconds.  It is much more difficult to use than a regular taunt, as you must change targets to use.  I find it more effective, especially with casters, to just use blessing of protection.. it sheds aggro for most attackers. 

Honestly, pally tanks are best for holding aggro against multiple (i.e. more than 5) targets.  However, damage mitigation is a key issue... against a hard hitting mob, a pally needs stam, str, armor, int, spell.  You cannot have it all unless you are over geared for the instance.  However, there are even some encounters where a pally tank actually is the best option.  The case that comes to mind is Steamvaults, 2nd boss.  In heroic, there is a constant stream of the little gnome mobs who heal the boss.  A pally can easily hold aggro against all of these, long enough for AOE or Seed of corruption to kill them.  It can be done with other tanks, but it is more challenging.  That said, I think that pallies are the least viable tanks for heroics, the mobs simply hit too hard.  You also seldom fight more than one mob at a time.  Sadly, waiting a few seconds to build aggro can be the difference between sucess and wipe .  I dont like it, especially with the upcoming nerf to Spiritual Attunement that will severely hurt Prot pallies (hurts me too.. /cry).

[Arcdelad]

i know thats off topic voc...but can you elaborate on that nerfage for those of us non-fluid in pally speak?

[JohnnieRat]

It's a touchy subject and we'd rather not talk about it

***Switching back to Holy once I have money... it's 10x easier to gear for healing than tanking. And solo-questing as prot makes me want to gouge out my eyes.

[Arcdelad]

We need more people like Oedipus in this world.....not the "accidentally had babies with your mom" aspect, but the "will be willing to drive sharp hair spokes through my eyes" types...

[voctovian]

When the next patch comes out, there are several significant changes (nerfs) to pallies included.  For further details, you need just look on the Paladin and PTR patch forums.  It is so bad, MANY pallies are leaving the game becuase of the loss in effectiveness.

-Spiritual attunement will no longer provide mana return if it overheals.  This means that if you have lost 6k health, get a 7k heal, where now you get 700 mana, you will get none.  If you dont take damage, you cannot get mana back from spiritual attunement.  This greatly reduces the effectiveness of the shadow priest/holy pally combo in raids and 5 mans.  It also is terrible for prot pallies.
-Illumination mana return will be reduced from 100% to 60%.  For any holy pally with this talent (almost all do), any time we crit, the cost of the spell cast is returned.  Raid healers would stack tons of spell crit because of this.  The tier 4/5 and arena sets only have spell crit to leverage this.  For example, suppose you cast four holy light 11 spells and all 4 crit.  This would do roughly 30k healing and 0 mana used.  Under the new patch, (840x0.4)x4= 1344 mana would be used.  This is a huge hit for all holy pallies, but especially brutal for those who have spent 1000's of gold (time/dkp) on spell crit gear.
-The increased healing from improved sanctity aura will be changed to increased damage (2%).  This is big blow for ret pallies... I know it made a huge difference to have Avarus in the same group as the tanks in the last Kara run I was in... the additional healing was absolutely amazing.  While the +2% damage is useful, especially with a melee DPS group, it is hard when healing efficiency has already been reduced.

All told, it looks like my healing capacity has been reduced by 15% or so.  Some well geared raiding pallies are seeing a drop in healing capacity of up to 35%.  This is significant.  The good news for me is I have collected gear to try to maximize MP5, not spell crit... I havent wasted much money or effort on spellcrit gear.  The bad news is healing will be much harder.. we may need to have three dedicated healers for Kara for example.

Voc

[Tyban]

I agree with gren maybe not a 100% but he makes valid points.  And for the record Ronick is in Dungeon 3 or Righteous Armor which is the only option us tankadins have before Tier4.

I'm hoping blizz helps us prot pally's out in the next patch.  According to rumors from PTR and pally forum the Holy Shield is being upgraded to 8 charges instead of 4 and maybe even do something about overlapping the coverage of Holy Shield by shorting the CD.  All rumors but i can still hope.

The way i feel about prot pally's right now.....we have come a long way from where we were.  We are still an evolving class which has been given upgrades and hope but not the talent or equipment to do the job right. Right now I would settle for a opening taunt and gear options.  Give us equipment we can tank with, without the righteous set.  Give us green plate options with stam, def and spell dmg or intel.  Equipment for the most part is the major problem for prot pally's...pre-Righteous Armor. 

And yes....for all those children out there, who still believe in Santa Claus and Tankadins...Gren is the Grinch  .

[Genoism]

the people on top of the dps meter dont really matter, as long as everyone is a few % within each other that means everyone is doing their job. Now if you have say gren being 20% ahead of a rogue or something, then obviously its not gren being super awesome but the rogue just not doing what they should be. I think back before hunters got seriously nerfed when I managed to make it to the top of the meter on my hunter i never managed to get more then 7% or so ahead of any of the other dps. Of course 7% can be a lot or a little depending on how long the fight is but someone will always be on the bottom and someone always on the top so the ppl in the bottom shouldn't get upset or whatever.

[Darkling]

Personally, I try to balance my DPS and my crowd controls (stuns, blinds, kicks, etc.) to ease healing for the healers and make it easier on the tanks to take out the mob. Sometimes I'll go ballistic for the hell of it and do mass DPS, usually stealing aggro from the tank, just for the hell of it.

As far as damage dealing, any warlock that uses tons of DOTs is going to out DPS a rogue unless that rogue has better gear and strong weapons. For example, Gren and cap both have better gear than myself giving them more +spell dmg than I have doing + any dmg. So they'll always out DPS me until I get some better gear and weapons. I'm working on it though.

[un4]

Personally, I try to balance my DPS and my crowd controls (stuns, blinds, kicks, etc.) to ease healing for the healers and make it easier on the tanks to take out the mob. Sometimes I'll go ballistic for the hell of it and do mass DPS, usually stealing aggro from the tank, just for the hell of it.

As far as damage dealing, any warlock that uses tons of DOTs is going to out DPS a rogue unless that rogue has better gear and strong weapons. For example, Gren and cap both have better gear than myself giving them more +spell dmg than I have doing + any dmg. So they'll always out DPS me until I get some better gear and weapons. I'm working on it though.

My response, exactly.  I ran the Shattered Halls yesterday with a total wackjob of a warrior who couldn't hold aggro at all.  Our pally (Ghis) wasn't specced for tanking yet (he's back to prot now), but he ended up holding 2-3 mobs at a time.  I had to blind one once we engaged, and had to keep TWO caster mobs at a time from getting spells off.  I got hit pretty hard in the damage department there, but it was worth it.

[JohnnieRat]

We had to see the Illumination nerf coming from a mile away tho. When Blizz made us arguably the strongest (single target) healers in the game, and wear plate and shields, along with awesome PvP utility as Holy spec (Priests, Shammies, and Druids when specced for healing seem to hate PvP)... the bomb had to come sooner or later.

And yea, prot pallies are just starting to be viable and coming into their own. Sooner or later they'll find the niche... until then, they can sit back and own rogues and fury warrs in PvP.

I've tallied it... and I've spent 200g on respecs in 2 weeks...