Bursting the Paladin bubble

[usonian]

OK, I hope this doesn't come across as a Paly bash-fest because I love all the Paladins in our guild and respect them for choosing a class I have yet to feel comfortable playing.  However, there is a place where all Paladins must die, and that place is called the Arena.  My frustrations stem mainly from playing on a 2v2 team with Arc and having a fairly inconsistent and mostly losing record against Paladin / DPS teams.  The focus of this post is to create an open forum of discussion on basically how to defeat this tough matchup in the Arenas and I hope the Paladins of Twilight will weigh in with some helpful ideas.  If you're worried about giving up class secrets or anything, know that I'll figure it out eventually, but I'd rather tap the immense talent of this guild's Paladins first.  If anyone would like to create a thread in this same vein about warriors I'll be glad to give away all the secrets because in my mind knowledge is nothing without the skill of the player to execute these strategies successfully in the fast-paced world of arena play.

Let me tell you what we're working with here: 
<a href="http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Arcdelad
">Arcdelad</a>, the "Powerhouse" feral Druid
<a href="http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Usonian
">Usonian</a>, the "once Protection turned Fury to pwn Arenas" Warrior

Obviously we're going all-out DPS when we can with Arc doing some creative healing when the situation calls for it.  We aren't really having issues with any other matchup that we can't figure out except for the Paly/DPS teams.  The main problem is obviously the bubble, but let's see some sample strategies and why they aren't working:

1) Rush the Paladin!!!

Very rarely if ever do you get a Paladin that won't bubble, if they don't it's game over for them.  When we rush the Paladin we get them pretty low to force the bubble and switch targets to the DPS.  Sometimes we can burn it down if it's cloth while the Paladin heals itself but usually the fast-healing Pally will keep them alive long enough to finish one of us off then we're pretty much screwed.  This is probably the least effective strategy.

2) Rush the DPS!!!

Sometimes this works, but a Pally left alone to stand there and heal can keep someone alive for awhile whle they burn one of us down.  If the target is Arc in cat form, he's pretty soft and sometimes it feels like I'm wearing cloth against casters.  Unless I get a lucky, un-trinketed fear on the Pally or Arc gets some stupid crits, we lose with this strat about 50% of the time.

3) Arc on DPS, Uso on Paladin

We haven't tried this much but the goal would be for me to keep the Pally busy while Arc burns down the other one with his uber DPS.  The problem here is that Paladins heal fast.  I have to save my pummel for the bigger Holy Light heals because Flashes of light just come way too fast and wasting a stopcast on those leaves my timing off for a bigger heal.  Arc is also softer in pure DPS cat form so he is susceptible to big warrior hits and hunter kiting as well as magic damage.  We may try the inverse of this since Arc's fast attacks and gouge (?) can keep the pally from healing too fast.  Of course the Pally can always bubble and let the heals fly.

4) Cyclone the Paladin, Burn the DPS

We have yet to try this but it might work if Arc can get back to cat and lay down enough DPS in under 6 seconds.  Once the Pally comes down though, one Holy Light and we're back at ground zero if the DPS isn't dead by then.  Does blessing of freedom work against Cyclone?  If we cyclone the DPS first, Pally's HP goes down, Pally bubbles, heals and we're back at square one again.


Yes I know what you're all thinking, "why not just go Arms Mortal Strike to reduce the healing?".  I agree this would probably help us against this matchup, but I don't believe that MS is the only strategy to beat Paladin healer teams.  Oh, and I'd hate to put my Dual Wield Merciless Gladiator's swords to waste with an Arms build:)

So how can we beat this matchup consistently?  What successes / failures have you had with this matchup on your arena team?  Let the information exchange begin!

[un4]

Um, I pop my bladefist's breath and adrenaline rush... then I frontload damage into the pally (yay combat fists!), using my imp kick and wounding poison to destroy any healing.

[usonian]

No offense, but have you ever tried that in 2v2 arenas with decently geared healadins?  If they're any good they'll cleanse your wounding poison, use freedom to stay out of your stuns and keep themselves healed until they bubble, all while you're getting wrecked by their DPS counterpart.  Even with combat fists you'll be hard pressed to take them out before a bubble and after that the teamate will take you out.  I don't have a problem dueling a healadin 1v1, it's the 2v2 thing that is difficult.

I know the silencing effect of Imp Kick is nice, but that and my pummel both have a 10 sec cooldown which isn't enough to stop all those flash heals AND holy lights when you're getting beat on, even with a 3 sec silence.

[Lord Entropy]

Considering you guys are both DPS, the paly matchup will be tough for you, especially given your lack of CC.  You might try getting the pally to burn the bubble early cyclone his/her partner and then run away for a bit and wait for bubble to drop.  Other than that, I don't have much to suggest.

[usonian]

That might be a viable option Osok.  If Arc can get the cyclone off on the DPS and we can run away for him to heal, then the fight is essentially reset without a bubble.  Arc can restealth, I get a fresh charge on the paly and we'll have a much better chance.  I know we can burn through paladins without a bubble.

[Drygioni]

The thing I hate the most in Arenas is CC.

I would suggest this strategy

You rush the non-pally and Arc cyclone the Pally. The Pally has a few strategies. an inexperienced one will bubble right out, simply wait for the bubble to end and re-apply. If he then uses a trink, wait and re-apply. the cd on cyclone is small enough that you can easily re-apply it. Hopefully you will have burned the other apponent down and then its a simple 2 on 1.  Pally CD on bubble is too long and having burned it early hes toast.

In my 2v2 with Geno's warr I use BOS on him which frees me from most CC. not all will think do that though:)

[usonian]

Thanks for the advice Dry.  I remember that BoS trick from the maiden fight - that's an awesome way to get a somewhat free release from an early CC, hopefully they don't think about that:) 

From what I've been gathering about this matchup, I think we're going to have to work on shifting Arc into more of a CC role against pallies.  Before I switched to Fury we were so dependent on Arc's massive damage that we couldn't imagine him doing anything else but all-out DPS.  Now that I can do some more damage it makes sense to put Arc's cyclone to work in these situations and have him clean up with DPS.

[Arcdelad]

cyclone ready it is awesome to have Uso's damage now...its letting me even think about doing things like cycloning...

plus..this tuesday uso gets his [wowitem]Merciless Gladiator's Slicer[/wowitem] to compliment his [wowitem]Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade[/wowitem], AND I get my [wowitem]Merciless Gladiator's Maul[/wowitem]...dps upgrade anyone?

[Nixphire]

3) Arc on DPS, Uso on Paladin

Thinking about it you probably give this a few tries. If Arc and solo the dps, or go bear form and suck up dmg you might be good to go. Pummel also silence all spells in that school of magic for 4 seconds. So that would shut the pallie up for casting the smaller heals for 4 seconds. You might also make a macro that swaps to a shield and then defensive stance to shield bash then and back. Both of those would prevent a pallie from bubbling since that is a holly spell too ^_^.
You might also charge the pallie while Arc is on the dps, wait for the first heal, and make a macro

\Assist Arc
\cast Intercept

That'll give Arc a bit of time alone with the target then give you 4 seconds of just you two going to town on the dps.

[Buzan]

Pretty much go for super hard dps (druid and war are both good classes for burst dps) and force a bubble early than rinse and repeat and pally = dead. That's for 2vs2. CC the other guy while said pally is getting slaughtered, (cyclone or roots or both) and congrats u guys won.

My rl best friend plays horde on Illidan and he is a rogue. His 2vs2 team consists of himself and a druid. That's the strat they use vs the pally/other class combo and they lose maybe 1 out of 20 games like that.

[Nixphire]

Divine Intervention is on an hour cool down. I don't believe you can use spells that have a longer then 30 minute cool down. Or somewhere around that (15 minute?)
What are the names of the other bubbles?

[Buzan]

Divine Intervention is on an hour cool down. I don't believe you can use spells that have a longer then 30 minute cool down. Or somewhere around that (15 minute?)
What are the names of the other bubbles?

That's it Divine Intervention which you can use in arenas (I was using it every game in my 3vs3) and blessing of protection which is a far cry from the previous but still effective if ur opponents are melee classes only. The cooldown for that is 10 minutes though. DI that is.
I know for sure it's under 15, pallies plz correct me if I am wrong it's been forever since I did anything on my pally.

[capnpop]

DI is a 60 min CD (kills pally and puts target in a 3 min bubble).  There is the standard bubble (12 secs for pally) and Blessing of Protection (donno how long, prevents physical damage). 

DI can't be used in arenas.  The other bubbles can.

There are a couple things that are doable that may work for you, it involves hoping that they are scared of a druid healer. 

Basically, Arc, when you leave the doors, don't be stealthed, they will be expecting some stealth DPS from a rogue or druid.  Leave in OOMkin form so they think you are a caster-type, also have as many HoTs on you and Uso as you can to start with (they are free during setup anyways) so it appears as though you may be a healer/OOMkin.  Druids are far more efficient healing than a pally so they may be concerned about you outlasting them.  Move ASAP behind a pillar and shadowmeld or w/e it is, but try to make sure that they saw you in moonkin form.  You use the stealth to shift into bear or cat and hope that the DPS tries to burn you down before you can start moonfiring/HoTting everything.  That means that you get their DPS to come to you (good) and if you're behind a pillar the pally loses LoS.  Uso needs to do his non-combat intercept (donno the name) to the pally and then fear him.  If the pally trinkets, Hamstring and start beating on him.  if he doesn't let him run as far as possible from his partner, then use your in-combat intercept (if available) to close the distance and hamstring him there.  If Arc has the situation under control start beating on the pally, force him to heal himself instead of closing the distance to save his friend.  If the pally actually runs closer to his friend on the fear then just start wailing on him and try to keep his partner out of LoS.   If the pally bubbles, congrats, you just got the bubble out of the way VERY quickly.

The key to every pally fight i've been in is to either control the pally to force him to bubble (hard), focus on the pally to force him to bubble (easier, but teammates beat on you endlessly), or LoS the pally's buddy to death.  With your setup you may want to have Uso on the DPS and Arc stealth into the pally to start his stuff.  If you hit the pally hard and fast as he's trying to get a big heal on his partner he'll prolly start to worry in a hurry.  If you get hammered so the pally can get some space shift to bear and feral charge > bash > Tranquility > eat pally...or some such nonsense...

[Vengeance]

Cap...Moonkin/Boomkin/Doomkin/OOMkin is  31 point talent...and even if you were to walk out normal form you could tell a druid by their spec instantly...say, because of enchants on weapons...mabye I could fool em cause I still wear a robe..

[Buzan]

D'oh yeah not DI there's another one, not BOP, that's 10 to 15 mins cooldown. Forgot the name though, but yes BOP and that one are the 2 pally bubbles.


EDIT: Ah yes here we go I remember it's called Divine Protection lol.
As you can see after the name it's very close to DI so I got them mixed up for a sec. But yes Divine Protection is the bubble that cannot be broken by anything fallowed by BOP which rocks for melee but not vs casters and you can get silenced/interupted with it on and of course get hit by spells.
So those are the 2 pally bubbles.