THE Presidential debate

[Luise]

If you want to escape American politics don't come to Australia- we see these guys on the news most nights.
Australia is pretty closely linked with America politicially, so it is important to us who leads your nation.
What upsets me is the huge sums of money spent by all major contendors - giving us the usual promises that are rarely kept.
The big gripes we have in Australia are education and health- both of which could improve dramatically.
But it's not just up to the leader of the country to make a difference- every person contributes.
I just watched a kids movie- "Horton hears a Who" - I think all our politicians could learn from it

[Shadowwolf]

First, I want to say the following:

[blizzard author=Shadowwolf]Please feel free to express your opinions here, but DO NOT take anything here personally or make anything here personal. I will be keeping an eye on this thread closely to make sure that it doesnt get out of hand and potentially brew fights as this is a taboo subject. I will also ask that as usual, please keep it out of guild chat, since we dont allow these types of subjects to be discussed in guild chat as that can quickly become heated and spark drama. On the forum here people have a chance to think more clearly about what they want to say and not feel pressured to respond quickly which is mostly the cause of hurt feelings.

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion and if it differentiates from your own thats no reason to not like them or fight with them or think less of them so lets please remember that.[/blizzard]

That being said, I will clarify some on my disappointment lately with this country I have called my home and have put my life at risk defending for 6 years during my time in the Marines.

Some of you may not be aware of this, but I am the recipient of a Navy and Marine Corps Medal and a Purple Heart. I dont say this to flash my medals around in anyone's face, or make claim that because I was wounded in combat defending this countries interests overseas that it makes me more knowledgeable than anyone else. I say this because if I didnt love this country I call my home I would have never put my life in jeopardy like I did years back during my service time. This isnt to say that anyone else loves this country less than I because they never served in the Armed Forces, I just think I should show that I do care about things here before my following comments tear this country apart.

I have slowly watched in frustration and disappointment at how this country has slowly gone from being a world leader into being the joke of the globe. Many people will attribute this to our current president, G.W., however our image is not entirely of his doing. A president is only as good as those who work for him keep him informed and basically, in the last 7 years time, that has not been our governments strong point. People like to lay claim that Bill Clinton was probably one of the greatest presidents our nation has seen in some time also, and they do this when discussing and blaming Bush for our time of crisis. That also makes me cringe to hear because Clinton was not a great leader, the primary difference is Clinton did a better job keeping up his image to the public and world and a better job covering his ass than Bush has done.

So now I look at these 3 candidates for president this year and my heart sinks even lower. The younger crowd seems to like Obama. He pushes "change" but hes very vague on what will change when asked directly. The items he will discuss and the proposed changes he claims dont sound like the best option for a country in our position. He pushes pulling our troops out of Iraq, but he doesnt seem to acknowledge the cost of doing something like that in terms of long term repercussions. Hes green, a junior senator who hasnt been in office long enough to truly know the ropes of our system of bureaucracy and red tape well enough to push these "changes" though to law. So while he has raised hope in many and looks promising, hes still a rich politician who still leaves many questions unanswered and he still would owe his nomination if he got one to his loyal party, which means he needs to repay all those endorsements and kickbacks to his campaign if he does make it to office.

Now we move to Hillary, someone who is basically riding an entire campaign on notoriety and pretty much her husbands coattails. Shes done very little if anything noteworthy in her time in congress. Shes basically spent all her time and effort pushing to get the Democratic nomination for president so hard shes not only made herself look dirty, but raised questions and dirt on Obama as well. Her success in this campaign to me has been nothing but making the Democratic party look like a mass of incompetents all because she wants to be president so badly for her own personal reasons. She shows me no reason to vote for her, all I see is a second chance for Bill to get influence on running the country and government politics to be business as usual if elected.

Moving on to McCain. Hes not the best choice, but honestly, out of the other Republicans who ran against him, he was the better choice. Thats not saying a lot, but Id much rather have him as an option than a politician who straps his dog to the roof when going on vacations. McCain has been in the game a long time, hes old no doubt. He has contacts and connections and like every politician, he owes people from endorsements and kickbacks too. He does have a better ability as ive seen out of all 3 though with foreign politics and agenda. While thats not our best plan for the hope of this country, we all need to face the fact that we need to improve our image overseas and work with other countries. McCain waffles a lot, hes here and there and changes his mind on issues from year to year, maybe its the old age, who knows. I do hold respect for the man being a POW for as many years as he was, and if anyone would have the proper experience to lead this country in this time with our troops occupying Iraq and Afghanistan, he would be the best out of all 3. Is he the best candidate, eh, probably not, he has his fails too.

So basically it comes down to the lesser of 3 evils. Which one could potentially screw this country up less in the next 4 years and *maybe* repair the damage done. One thing that the 2 democratic candidates have not acknowledged is our occupation of Iraq. Unfortunately, due to the screwups of this administration and out current leaders, who some had best intentions but never thought through the long term on them, we have to deal with Iraq. Simply pulling all our interests and people out isnt the way to deal with it because then all this time, money, and effort is for not because it will start all over again.

The other issue is our failing economy. The government didnt step in to regulate loans and real estate properly probably due to the Iraq war, and so now we have tons losing homes and losing jobs which is causing an economic downturn and border lining a recession. Most of the problems with the jobs is that companies are unrestricted in how they can outsource positions to lesser and cheaper countries like Mexico and India without having to pay fines, premiums, etc and maximizing their profits. NAFTA did this and that was not the fault of our current president, that was the illustrious Bill Clinton's doing. People fail to realize that as with each president the current one has to deal with the repercussions and effects of the decisions made by the previous one. The longer they previous one was in office, the longer those repercussions are felt.

America has issues. Big issues, and government isnt getting any less corrupt. In the end we as the people of the nation have no one to blame for these issues caused by government except ourselves. We elect the leaders who elect other leaders and so on. So it starts with us. Because so much of this country is uneducated and goes with the politician who sounds the best and tells them what they want to hear but not necessarily is the best candidate, we get idiots who are only there for the kickbacks from lobbyists in office that do nothing positive for the country. Democracy works, but only when left in the hands of the people. Unfortunately this country was bought and sold to industry and business a long time ago and I dont think save a revolution, it will ever get put back in the hands of the people. The people need to want to take it back and sadly, the mass population of this country is more interested in buying inflatable BBQ grills for the pool and copies of Girls Gone Wild and take more interest in voting for contestants on American Idol more then they do about voting for the best political leaders.

[Grendeel]

My beliefs as to what is happening in American politics isnt based on Barack Obama at all.  Its based on whats been happening for a few years now.  Its a ground swell of typical American citizens mobilizing to effect change on how your politicians are selected.  It started back with Howard Dean and the very minor victory in winning the Iowa Primary.   Sadly the democratic establishment, with the help of the media, blunted this people powered candidate in his tracks.  Fortuneatly  this was a blessing in disguise because it allowed him to run for leader of the DNC.   This was fought tooth and nail by the establishment because of his philosophy "50 state" project.

This 50 state project means he wants to be competitive in all states.  Its silly to concede a bunch of states in an election.  Over his tenure as chairman of the DNC, the majority of the money has been spent building up the democratic apparatus in all states (particularly red states).  The long term goal was to get out of this mentality " we need to win the few swings states available.....Florida, Ohio, Penn, NM".  This was also a goal the establishment didnt want to pursue.   This project would take years, maybe decades (and still might) but it has been hastened by the grassroots movement of people.

This grassroots "people powered movement" has the ability to put boots on the ground.  That is, to create an infrastructure  where u can develop donor lists, voting lists, callers, canvassers etc etc.  They have successfully helped put democratic senators/congressmen into office from solidly republican districts.   A few examples are:  Jim Webb (beat George Allan who was expected to be the republican nominee for the next presidential candidate),  Jon Tester (beat encumbant Conrad Burns who had been in office since 1989...an extremely rare feat).  Clair McCaskill  (which was held by a republication since 1994....a republican stronghold) and Ned Lamont who beat Joe Lieberman in the democratic primary (but because republicans voted en masse for him he won the seat anyway).  These are just a few who where vigorously supported by the grassroots and pulled off enormous upsets (the democratic establishment had other candidates they were backing in the primary).  This is the movement im talking about....people ...not the rich or well connected dictating who will and wont be running.

Now combine the 2 things and you have something new taking over how politics are run.  You get the support of this huge movement by having integrity and the willingness to vote for whats best for the citizens of the country ....not the rich/lobbists/corporations.   Tester, Webb, McCaskill has consistently shown this integrity with their votes.  They are beholden to no one.  Barack Obama was chosen by the grassroots for the same reason.  Endorsements do not mean much of anything by themselves.  Take Ted Kennedys' endorsement (with much fanfare) for Obama.  Obama still lost Massachusetts.  Endorsements for the most part mean very little in elections.   They do help keep you on the front page of a news cycle but other than that, they really dont translate into votes (meaning they are of minimum value)  So you wont be beholden to anyone for endorsments of this nature.

Am i saying if Obama wins then things instantly change?  Heck no.  The establishment is well entrenched  in politics and it will take politcial will, and time, to change things.  That time will be quicker if there is a president that understands this.  Obama does.

As for electability in the "swing states".  Just because Hillary has beaten Obama in these states doesnt mean she has a better chance of beating McCain then Obama does.   In fact exit polls show that whether its Obama or Hillary against McCain  each garner the same support from all voting groups and each would compete equally with McCain in the swing states.  As told by the NYT today

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/us/politics/24clinton.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1209034908-7kdwTmCrI9ZFIreb6pOp7g

Obama additionally brings in play Colorado Virginia Iowa, Missouri.   And in the bigger picture (deans vision), Obama extremely increases the chance of all the down ticket elections happening in the red states.   Its a long arduous process because the republicans are well entrenched in these states and in many of them, have gerrymandered the districts to keep them perpetually in republican hands.  Changing that starts at the state level. One seat at a time.

edit everywhere i typed grassroots u can assume i meant  "netroots" as well

[Arcdelad]

I am Arcdelad, and I approve of Gren's message.

The hypocrisy of a conservative regime is staggering - spy on people to protect their rights, wage an unneccesary war in the name of peace (which is a lot like f***king in the name of chastity), spend trillions of dollars on the military and subsidies for the rich, thus driving up our deficit in order to restore financial responsibility in government...

I could go on for days - I could never in good conscious vote republican with the current beliefs and power structures in place. I once really liked John McCain even as I am a very liberal democrat...he has historically reached accross the isle for a number of huge pieces of legislation and I always appreciated that he wasn't afraid to deviate from the party line. I think that McCain is gone though, and I am truly sad for that.

I have read all three candidates books - Obama's, Clinton's and a few of McCains...I love the rhetoric of Obama...it is great to see an GOOD speaker and writer running for president, ESPECIALLY after suffering through 8 years of a pretzel choking , monosylabbic psychophant in the office...

On policy Clinton and Obama are almost identical...seriously...there is little distinguishable or substantive difference between the two. To me I support Obama becuase he seems to be an energetic leader with good ideas..Clinton has good ideas too, but a lot of past baggage and a streak of deviousness I dont at all like.

EDIT: Okay...ONE more. The republican constituancy overall is pro-life and wants to reverse Roe v Wade...they are pro-life, and the christian wing of their party demands this to protect life (thats fine). This same group of people strongly supports the DEATH pentalty, going to war to KILL people, and will show no sympathy if an abortion doctor DIES. I just dont get it. I am now done

[Lynette]

Gren, I hope you are right.  I really do.  The country needs to change direction and soon.  I'd love to believe the things I'm hearing from Obama.  But the realist in me senses it is a mirage and the fall will be greater if Obama is elected.  Atleast no one expects great things from the other 2 candidates.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who dislikes Hillary, by the way.

[Shadowwolf]

I dont hold to party politics and out of the 3 candidates running, I have to say 2 are not completely left or right. Those 2 being Obama and McCain. Hillary cant make up her own mind she has to backpack on the others, and I dont even count her honestly.

I personally consider myself a Free Thinker. When the vote comes in November I myself will probably end up voting for Ralph Nader. My family gives me grief at this sometimes and last time I did one family member actually said to me "Why did you waste your vote on Nader?" clearly not understanding how the presidential electoral process works. I know he doesnt have a chance in hell to win, but hes not aligned with any groups or businesses, hes there with himself. His policies are a little vacant and that can be improved but at least he has no allegiances to speak of where if he made it into office he would be obligated to fill seats and positions accordingly. I spoke to a friend of mine whos been active in politics a long while and considers himself a "registered Democrat" and even he believes this year is going to be a tough call and plans to go with Nader as well.

The other 3 candidates...you can bet they have allegiances with political groups and such. They belong to party politics, its a given. For too long both parties have become increasingly separate from one another and the line between the 2 which used to be blurred a lot on many different issues isnt anymore.

In terms of Democrat or Republican, I dont consider myself either. Theres some things im liberal about, and theres some things im conservative about. The details of each im not going to discuss, but honestly, it makes me sad when people call themselves a Democrat or a Republican because I feel like they have lost sight of the issues and take allegiance with their named party over voting for whats right. It also upsets me greatly that at the polls you are asked what party you are with and then are expected if not forced in some situations to vote for that party. Since when did this country become about forcing its citizens to vote a certain way regardless of how they might feel about the candidate? Unfortunately both parties have moved to extremes over the last 10 years on things. Most of the Democratic party is extreme left wing, and most of the Republican party is extreme right wing and theres very few if any who stay close to the middle. I see Obama and McCain doing this some, neither moves to the extreme side on all issues, but on some they do. For being 2 different parties, they share a lot of common ground on many issues when you get down to it.

To label Obama or McCain on their party ticket and say "Im not voting for McCain because then the White House will be full of gun toting death penalty supporters" or to not vote for Obama and say "The WH will be full of tree hugging hippies" is just foolish. Go with the issues and who you feel makes the most sense, not what the party history has been. Both of these men have shown they deviate from their party and have no fear to do so, as with any politician they do have to ally with their party at times, but I like to think both are intelligent people and I dont see McCain forcing any pro-life issues on the country nor do I see Obama doing anything similar.

Im not here to throw out support for one or the other or force people to vote one or the other. I just think that party politics should be thrown aside for once and we should decide based on the person. They are politicians, meaning they are prone to lie, cheat and steal and even Obama who appears to be squeaky clean has been guilty of stupid and foolish decisions as much as any other politician.

In the end they all owe thier nominations (once they get it) to their party. Which means once they get into office they will be made to "repay" the favor by filling seats and positions within the party. Obama is no different than other politicians in this aspect as much as it seems he is.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is probably the best example of a good politician in recent times. People say, "hes just a retarded actor, he cant possibly run a government" which is not true. He makes mistakes, but hes cleaned up California from all the mess the previous governor made quite a lot. California doesnt have those lovely "Rolling Blackouts" anymore and isnt paying vehicle taxes and fees with first born children. When I use him as an example, I mean in terms of how he got elected. He ran on the republican ticket, but none of his campaign was owed to the Republican party. Hes crossed the line on voting against his party so many times its not funny because he simply doesnt care about his party because they didnt fund his campaign, he did it on his own so he owes no one. None of the 3 presidential candidates can stake claim to that. They each owe their campaign to special interest groups or their party of some sort and in the end thats going to throw a wrench in the works. The money spent on this election so far is staggering, I mean simply staggering and its actually disgusting to boot. To see millions of dollars poured into TV ads, phone ads, radio adds, then watch the 3 of these people make complete asses of themselves in public just to pander for votes is sad. Unfortunately thats how this country works these days, you dont get elected president without spending the cash.

Im not here to push Nader or any other candidate, but I think people should vote with their heads and not their party. Regardless who gets elected in November they have a lot to deal with once they set foot in the door come January. Our current president has created a lot of things that need to be addressed and handled for years to come and how that new person deals with them will determine the future of this country. I dont think there has ever been such a serious line of issues for a president to deal with since FDR was in office and had to deal with the Depression and WW2.

Belief and hope are funny things. They can make people argue about once side or the other they support until they are out of breath but whats even more strange is how devastating taking either away can be to someone. My point with that being is that all of us here can trade of reasons why this candidate is better than that candidate all day long and get nowhere. In the end we all make our own decisions and sometimes those decisions dont match up with others'. As much as I am uneasy about this thread being here because of the subject, Im letting it continue but lets not turn it into a who's better to vote for thread. Those things never lead anywhere positive so lets keep that in mind.

[JohnnieRat]

What have I done?

But anyways... So congress is opting to have hearings about sports and roids rather than real issues. For the sake of shaking a cage, I blame Jabba the Hut... i mean Ted Kennedy.

[Grendeel]

With respect to campaign financing, here is a break down of each candidates donor lists.

John McCain
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00006424&cycle=2008

Hillary Clinton
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00000019&cycle=2008

Barack Obama
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008

As these numbers show Obama has not recieved money from any labour PACs and only  1000 dollars from business Pacs and 12,000 dollars from single issue pacs for a total of roughly  $13,000

Whereas Hillary has received 1.2Millon from Pacs........ 435k from Business Pacs ..88k from labour Pacs and 250k from single issue pacs

Joh McCain has recieved  724k from Pacs.......327k from business pacs.....$2500 from labour pacs.... 138k from single issue pacs.


Now im not using this info or this thread to get people to vote for Obama (heck i dont even live in America).  What i am doing is pointing out the remarkable difference in how a campaign is being run and won!   The vast majority of donations to Obama is coming from the average American citizen in amounts of $25-$100ish.  This is who he will be beholden to.  Hillary and McCain have other interests  that they will have to answer to on top of the individual donors.

I wish all countries eliminated the special interest groups and lobbyists from the leadership campaigns.  Canada at least, has gone to the step of mandatory public financing (still rife with unfairness)  but the lobbyists and special interests still have significant influence over the process.

Im just pointing out that there is something unique going on in this Presidential campaign.  A candidate that actually is running primarily because of this grassroots movement.  He wouldve been out of it after the first or second primary without it.

[Shadowwolf]

hehe

[JohnnieRat]

Pro gun control people scare me.

[Nixphire]

Vote for the canidate who will bring about REAL change

[Nasanna]

I hope he's hugging that mudkip and not choking it.

[JohnnieRat]

Ted Nugent for President

[kinjin]

Teds got my vote

[Telfurion]

Although I am definitely a conservative and will most likely vote for McCain, I love how little money Obama has taken from PACs, that transfers over to the White House quite nicely, considering how much lobbying goes on there (not as much as Congress, but still a significant amount).  Unfortunately, his other policies (or lack of one) are too much for me to be able to vote for him.  Too bad he isn't a conservative...
Sidenote:  When did conservatives start taking so much money from commitees and private interests, aren't conservatives supposed to spend less money... ahhhh Ron Paul, you had it right...