Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices

Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 09:17:40 AM

So I've spent a considerable amount of free time on this subject because after 3.0 and WotLK, I noticed my performance as a Balance druid in instances was faltering some. The standard practice prior to 3.0 as a Moonkin was basically spam Starfire on bosses, Wrath spam on trash. Since then, a lot has changed for the spec and it took me a little bit to figure out a decent rotation as well as hammer out a viable spec that works well for DPS.

I perused a lot of the major forums on the subject, and in my reading I learned that a lot of people basically dont have a clue what they are talking about. Just about everything I read and tried verbatim, didnt work. Because of this, I had to be careful about what advice on these boards I listened to and what advice I ignored. I think I finally got something workable down, so I decided it would be a good idea to share it with everyone else who is Balance as I noticed that 3.0 and WotLK has basically had the same effect on all our guild Moonkins. Most of us are basically chickens with our heads cut off when it comes to what spec and rotation to use in 5-man and raids (no pun intended) and so I hope to maintain this thread to resolve that and bring Moonkin DPS back up to where it should be.

Please remember that these are only suggestions based on my own trials and experiences in trying to improve my own DPS. You can take or leave any of the advice I give here as I am not preaching to be a Balance druid expert by any means, only that I've spent a good amount of time looking into all this and I believe the information I have come across will prove invaluable for anyone planning to go Moonkin.

This is a thread covering Balance spec and how it pertains to PvE content only, most specifically groups and raids. I have not done much with PvP content since 3.0 and I really dont intend to anytime soon, also I would imagine most of the suggestions here wouldnt be too applicable within PvP situations. Additionally, Solo play situations are in a similar situation, most of what I list here would apply to Solo play as well, but some talents and suggested practices may not be ideal for solo questing/play and you'll have to be the judge of that yourself.

Spec's and Talents

To start off, Im going to cover some of the major talents to look out for that I believe are important in DPS output within PvE content. Over the last few weeks, Ive tried a lot of Balance builds, even more so with leveling. I believe I have finally found a build viable for PvE content in Instances, Heroics and Raids.

[attach=1]
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbziIoIdhAuMhZbxcuo

The basic layout of this build is 56/0/15 as shown above in the screen cap and with the link.

Now to detail some of the main talent choices and my reasons for choosing them. To start, Im going to go down the few spillover talents within the resto tree first and work my way back to balance only because theres only a handful of talents within the Restoration tree.

Restoration (15 points)

[spell=17051]2/2 Improved Mark of the Wild[/spell] - The main reason I chose this was group benefit. When specing for raids and even to an extent heroics, you need to look at what possible talents are both worth your while as well as an added benefit to the group. Imp MotW is of HUGE benefit to the group as well as yourself. A 40% increase in benefits it gives is a good boost to DPS and survivability for raids. The talent increase ends up making MotW the following:

Increases the friendly target's armor by 1050, all attributes by 51.8 and all resistances by 75.6.

Thats a considerable bonus from its basic non-talented cast. This talent is of course purely optional by you and can be spent in [spell=17065]Nature's Focus[/spell] instead though the benefit there isnt as great in groups and raids and pertains more to solo grinding. Its unlikely you'll be taking on damage within raids to affect your spell push back where this would become necessary.

[spell=17061]5/5 Furor[/spell] - This is a must have for Moonkin. This will increase your Intellect by 10% of your stats in Moonkin form, which will stack with buffs in raid like Arcane Intellect and Blessing of Kings to give you a considerable boost in mana pool, mana regen, and damage output ([spell=33591]Lunar Guidance[/spell]) as I'll discuss further on. An overall larger mana pool will help you on the long boss fights within Heroics and Raids to keep you from closing in on being OOM which can happen very easily.
[spell=16835]3/3 Natural Shapeshifter[/spell] - Given the choices of the other talents on this tier of Restoration as it pertains to Moonkin, this is the best option. The other talents on this tier dont offer any impacting effect on your role as DPS within a group setting, however this does play a role in situations where you may need to shapeshift a few times mid fight. Situations where you may need to free yourself from root effects, or times when you may need to cast a resto spell which would break Moonkin form, this will come in handy. Also, in order to receive the benefit of the tier of talents below as I've outlined, maxing out points here is a necessity. You could take your 2 points from [spell=17051]2/2 Improved Mark of the Wild[/spell] and move them on to other talents within this tier as well if you chose to, so long as you spend at least 10 points between the first 2 tiers to make the 3rd tier of talents available.
[spell=17108]3/3 Intensity[/spell] - Here is where it gets optional. I found that having good mana regen is just heavenly within group settings and even for solo grinding. Im less likely to OOM during the long fights and my mana pool lasts leaps and bounds longer with this talent maxed out. This is however discretionary on your part as to what you feel is more to your benefit. If you get your spell critical % up high, you may want to explore re-distributing these points then to Master Shapeshifter instead as your regen will be offset by the mana return from your critical strikes.
[spell=48411]1/2 Master Shapeshifter[/spell] - Again, this is the optional factor. You can choose to either go 1/2 in talents here and 3/3 in [spell=17108]Intensity[/spell], or take a point out of Intensity and max this one out. My advice is that if you are just recently hitting lvl 80 and your spell crit is in the low 20% range or lower, you keep [spell=17108]3/3 Intensity[/spell] only because you're going to need a lot of regen until your crit rate improves, otherwise you'll be going OOM and your DPS will suffer badly. The spell damage increase from this talent is handy and when you start stacking +dmg gear, youll see a good return from this talent down the road.
[spell=16864]1/1 Omen of Clarity[/spell] - In my opinion, this is a simple MUST. The free spell cast procs a good amount and it is invaluable when DPSing as you can basically maximize your mana pool by using high cost spells when this procs. This also affects Hurricane, so in situations that need heavy AOE, you can essentially get free Hurricane casts which will save you a ton of mana in those situations since spell criticals from Hurricane no longer return mana.

Beyond this tier in Restoration, the talents basically only pertain to healers, so its not worth the effort to discuss these when applied to Moonkin (Balance) spec. If you are looking to do a hybrid build of sorts for PvP you might want to look at them, but for PvE purposes, the only really semi-beneficial talent further in this tree for Balance might be [spell=17116]Nature's Swiftness[/spell] which given the 3min cooldown, the application for its use becomes very minimal and not arguably beneficial. It would also require an additional 6 points to be spent within the Restoration tree which would greatly disadvantage you from more beneficial talents within the Balance tree.

Balance (56 points)

Since this tree is the main tree for this spec and I've selected a TON of talents, Im going to start off by outlining what I chose and why for this build, and then at the end cover the talents I skipped and why. This way you can look at my experiences and reasons and judge for yourself what you think would be worthwhile for yourself based on your play style and what you see as valuable for yourself.

[spell=16818]5/5 Starlight Wrath[/spell] - I went with max on this talent because basically half a second shaved off Wrath casts plus haste = more DPS. This is going to end up being a heavily casted spell, and its ideal for the rotation Ive outlined which I will discuss further on that the less time you spend casting this spell, the more time you'll have with your rotation and recieve a better DPS output. This also is ideal for working with the [spell=48525]Eclipse[/spell] talent I'll mention further on.
[spell=16847]3/3 Moonglow[/spell] - Another no-brainer given talent honestly. Missing out on a 9% mana cost reduction of all your primary offensive spells is just a foolish thing to do so you want to max this one out.
[spell=35364]2/2 Nature's Majesty[/spell] - Again, this is a given. You'll get a better return on your damage with this easy extra 4% crit chance as well as having it benefit the mana returns you get on long fights from the crits. This will also give you some better flexibility on gems and enchants on your gear down the road with having basically a free 4% crit you dont have to worry about losing when you change out gear items or gems.
[spell=16822]2/2 Improved Moonfire[/spell] - This one gets missed by a lot of the self proclaimed "experts" you'll find on the WoW forums, however, with the rotation I've outlined as well as the Glyph's I suggest which I'll cover later in this thread, this is pretty important to strong DPS. You'll see a better damage return on this on Boss fights more so than you will on trash or short duration fights. The primary reason for this will be the 10% damage increase to Moonfire not so much the added crit bonus and again, I'll cover that later. From this point, you should start getting used to your Moonfire and Insect Swarm spells being used primarily as a DoT to be re-applied when necessary. I know a lot of people may be used to Moonfire as a last minute spam spell to finish off something with low health, but those days are over since 3.0 as the benefit of this spell is better utilized as a DoT and letting it run its full duration.
[spell=57865]1/1 Nature's Splendor[/spell] - This talent I chose based on gear, as well as spell rotation benefit. Using Moonfire and Insect Swarm as renewable DoT's during fights, this talent will save you in your rotations and allow you to squeeze in more Wrath or Starfire casts before you have to renew it. I'll outline how this can be adjusted later down the road once gear improves but for someone fresh to 80 and even in full T7 gear, this is a good talent to have as it maximizes the full effect of Moonfire and Insect Swarm as a DoT.
[spell=16820]2/2 Nature's Reach[/spell] - Get this, your tanks and healers will thank you later. Prior to 3.0 this talent didnt reduce threat, but now it does and its going to save you some repair bills later since Moonkin basically dont have an aggro dump as [spell=58984]Shadowmeld[/spell] only works some of the time in certain situations to save your feathery butt should you pull aggro.
[spell=16913]5/5 Vengeance[/spell] - Basically a given again. This will help your DPS output by upping the damage your spell crits do, and in turn, it has the side bonus of adding more mana to you in return off your crits since mana return is based on a % of crit strike damage.
[spell=16924]3/3 Celestial Focus[/spell] - The primary reason to get this spell is for the Haste. 3% haste is really good, and its free with this talent so it saves you some dependency on gear. The stun...well...about the only use youll see from this is in Heroics, Instances and Soloing. 90% of stuff in raids is going to be immune to the stun, 99% of bosses (theres always that 1% Blizz throws in there as a changeup) and so its likely the stun proc off it wont see much use at all. Also, the stun proc rate is...well bleh honestly. It doesnt happen all that often and its more of an added special unexpected bonus when it does happen. Kind of like finding a few bucks in your pants pockets when you do laundry. Its not something you should be looking for actively but a nice bonus when it happens.
[spell=33591]3/3 Lunar Guidance[/spell] - Get this, its free spell damage based on your total intellect. This will benefit you even more in raids when you have buffs like Arcane Intellect and Blessing of Kings on you. Passing up free spell damage is a foolish thing to do
[spell=48468]1/1 Insect Swarm[/spell] - You want this for DoT and spell rotation. Theres an optional Glyph that will change how this spell works which I'll discuss later, but basically, as a DoT in raids, especially on bosses, this is a good thing to have. With a good amount of spell damage, this DoT can do quite a bit of damage, when you partner it with Moonfire, you're looking at almost 10k free damage to a mob with just those 2 things alone.
[spell=33956]3/3 Dreamstate[/spell] - You will badly need this to maintain your mana during long boss fights so its best to max this talent out. Even when you start to bring your spell crit rate up high, you should still keep this talent maxed. This will allow you to regen while you are casting based off your Intellect which in raids, most fights you will be casting constantly, so this becomes important. Also, it stacks with buffs like Arcane Intellect and Kings, so its benefits are scalable.
[spell=16899]3/3 Moonfury[/spell] - This is basically 10% free damage on your primary attack spells. As you increase your spell power it scales as well as with buffs, so dont pass this one up. If you go with [spell=16822]2/2 Improved Moonfire[/spell] as I suggested above, thats basically 20% added damage bonus to your Moonfire spells so you can see where the benefit now comes with this spell as a DoT in cast rotation.
[spell=33596]2/2 Balance of Power[/spell] - This one you can look to adjusting later down the road when you improve upon your gear. Its basically a must have though for a fresh 80 and even in full T7 at least till you find other ways to max out your spell hit. Again, its optional to change it later, however I honestly wouldnt. Keeping it will allow you more flexibility in gem and gear choices without having to worry to terribly about losing too much spell hit. It has the added bonus of reducing your being hit with spells as well which can prove to be handy in raids which might result in you taking damage from things like AOE and whatnot.
[spell=24858]1/1 Moonkin Form[/spell] - If you are reading this thread because you are Balance spec and you dont pick this talent, you need to be shaken vigorously and smacked with a rubber hose. This is the primary reason for going Balance spec and the aura will keep you DPSing in the fight. The mana returns off spell crits and the added crit bonus aura are just must have's. Also, people in your group will be more likely to want you around as a Balance druid because of that aura =)
[spell=48396]3/3 Improved Moonkin Form[/spell] - I went with this maxed for 2 reasons. First, in raids and groups, its 3% free haste to everyone near you (Yes, its stright up haste, so it affects Physical DPS classes as well). Also, with the introduction of Spirit to damn near everything and the changes made to it by Blizzard with WotLK, you gain extra spell damage from any Spirit on you. This is a nice bonus if you have a Discipline priest in group casting [spell=48073]Divine Spirit[/spell] as well as giving you more gearing options to benefit from.
[spell=48393]3/3 Owlkin Frenzy[/spell] - (A.K.A. Pissed Moonkin), the benefits of this talent in groups and raids is debatable. What I have noticed however is that this can and does proc often from things even like aura's not just damage. If thats intended or just a bug with the game at the time I write this, I dont know, but its handy to have. Also, for situations like AOE, if you happen to have to AOE things w/o the assistance of a tank in places like Heroics or a raid, this acts like a free Barkskin almost where you have 0 pushback on spells, meaning you can cast Hurricane and not lose any time off the channeling if the AOE mobs happen to aggro on you. Additionally, 10% increased damage from it as well, which helps even more with AOE usefulness. My suggestion is to take this, and its also a good alternative to the Restoration talents in [spell=17065]Nature's Focus[/spell] that we discussed earlier as well as it being VERY handy in Solo play.
[spell=33607]5/5 Wrath of Cenarius[/spell] - Again, added bonus to your primary attacks. Its unwise to pass these up or even skimp on in the slightest as this will affect your overall DPS.
[spell=48525]3/3 Eclipse[/spell] - As I discussed earlier, this is a spell that can be used to an extreme benefit on your spell rotation and overall DPS in raids and groups. There is still much debate as to the viability of this talent in overall Balance spec DPS, but a lot of the outcome of the results depends heavily on managing this proc. That is where the tricky part comes into play as many people dont properly manage it as it can be a little rough to get used to at first, but I believe once you get the hang of it, you'll find as I have its benefit is very nice. Ill discuss this talent more when I get to spell rotations and practices.
[spell=61384]1/1 Typhoon[/spell] - This I believe is a must have in the Balance tree as the game sits now. There are many uses this spell has in Raids, especially Naxx and in a slew of heroics as well. Again, this is highly optional, however I've found countless times this spell has been of extreme use in Heroics so far and Im told by others it has many practicalities in Naxx although I havent experienced this myself since I raid as a healer.

Managing this spell and knowing when to use it however is important as this is one of those spells that can be a really good thing in certain situations and even border life saving but can also be a really bad thing in other situations and possibly cause wipes if used carelessly. This spell IS NOT intended to be included in normal DPS casting rotation and ends up being more situational as well as being a "panic" button of sorts as well. Ill discuss proper use of this in the Practices portion of this thread.
[spell=48514]2/2 Gale Winds[/spell] - This talent is mostly dependent if you choose to grab up [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] as well. If you intend to skip Typhoon entirely, the value of this talent becomes debatable as its only impact becomes when you use Hurricane which is a situational spell honestly. Yes a 30% increase in Hurricane damage would be beneficial, but spending these 2 talent points for just that use would be wasteful in my opinion as Hurricane has limited uses and isnt part of a standard spell rotation...nor should it be honestly considering the mana cost versus the damage output. If you do intend to get Typhoon however, this becomes more valuable as 30% more damage to Typhoon could mean the difference between only having to cast 1 Typhoon or a Typhoon and a Hurricane.
[spell=48511]3/3 Earth and Moon[/spell] - This is a must have in my opinion as a Balance druid for overall DPS of not only yourself, but raid as well. The debuff will increase the DPS output of all other casters in group as well as up your own damage by 3%. The 3% damage increase is constant regardless if the debuff is applied to the target as some other classes have debuffs of a similar nature that will override this debuff in raid. The debuff is just an added bonus for both you and any other casters in group with you.

Sidenote:

[spell=57849]Improved Insect Swarm[/spell] - For this talent to be worthwhile, I found you need to max it out. Sadly, that takes 3 points which can be spent elsewhere for more versatility, however, if you decide to skip out on [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] and [spell=48514]Gale Winds[/spell], this can be a VERY good alternative to those 2. If I wasnt taking those 2 talents instead I would most definitely put max points into this talent as it benefits a solid rotation greatly. Again, this will depend on your desire of talents and style of play. This would be a better option to the 2 other talents I listed if you are going strictly for a pure DPS build and looking to min/max your output. A build that looks like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIsIdhVh0hZbxcuo might be something to try then.

Balance Unused Talents

Im going to outline the talents in the balance tree I did not choose and why so that you can make an educated decision based on my experiences and your own as well as what you see as beneficial for yourself in your own play style. Im not insulting your choices here if you have these talents and find them useful, just that in my trials and errors with experimenting with builds, Ive found good reason to avoid these talents which I intend to outline for you so you can weigh out the cost/benefits.

[spell=57810]Genesis[/spell] - Honestly, I tried this in a Balance build a while, and since removing it and placing the 5 points into [spell=16818]5/5 Starlight Wrath[/spell], Ive seen better returns on my DPS. This talent seems more geared for a Restoration healing build as this will only affect Moonfire and Insect Swarm damage if talented and those 2 spells while a key part of a good spell rotation should not be the primary method of attack. Your Wrath and Starfire spells are still your primary casts so this talent is somewhat a waste for a good solid DPS spec.

[spell=16836]Brambles[/spell] - As Ill discuss further down this list, this is only applicable if you select the [spell=33831]Force of Nature[/spell] talent which for solid group/raid DPS I believe is a waste. The side effect of this to stun targets when Barkskin is active is also mostly for PvP and Solo grind only. Most times this isnt going to be of much help in raids or groups unless you pull aggro, and if you do, you're likely going to die anyhow. The added bonus to Thorns and Entangle Roots is also mostly for PvP and Solo usefulness only. As a leveling talent, this might be worthwhile, but honestly at 80, for group and raid DPS which is what your primary function is likely going to be, this talent is of little value.

[spell=16880]Nature's Grace[/spell] - This talent can be useful depending greatly on gear. As a new 80 and even if you manage full T7/Naxx items, I still dont see this as being that much of a huge value to DPS output. Fully talented with 3 points this is 100% chance to proc, however without a high crit rate, this isnt something of much worth since thats the trigger for this bonus. As you improve gear and your spell crit goes up, this might be a viable talent to look into, however you'd have to pull talents from elsewhere for it which honestly I dont see being a good idea. This talent seems more tuned with a Restoration healing build where it shaves a half second off Regrowth, Nourish or Healing Touch which is a nice bonus for healing since its proc rate is helpful regardless how little or often it occurs. With a DPS build, for this to be effective, this would have to be proc'ing nearly constant and I think 3 talents are better spend elsewhere until you get a higher crit rate for spells. Once your gear improves, you could look at adjusting you spec to something similar to this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIoIdhVuMhZbxcuo

[spell=33602]Improved Faerie Fire[/spell] - To be completely honest, I think this talent is garbage. To be worth anything, it needs to be maxed out and 3 points into it, I saw very little benefit to it on long term use. Also, casting FF during a spell rotation is going to hurt your DPS some. Yes, the benefit to the raid casters is nice, 3% chance to hit is a good thing, however there are other classes with similar abilities which make this talent somewhat redundant. The 3% chance to crit is the garbage part. Its so unnoticeable that you would be better off spending these 3 points elsewhere. If you are lacking spell hit and you are noticing your DPS fall because of it, this might be an alternative to try and offset that while you procure better gear, however, again, theres other talents and spells by other classes which will do the same so its iffy. Prior, this talent was 3% hit overall, both spells and physical, since 3.0 however it was struck with the nerf bat and its raid viability and value isnt so hot anymore. If you have extra talents to spend, by all means, but this is not really something to go out of your way for.

[spell=33831]Force of Nature[/spell] - Everyone loves the trees as Balance, but they dont fit in too well with solid DPS on groups and raids sadly. The long cooldown as well as the fragility of them as "pets" which dont receive any added avoidance to AOE nor are they easily controllable ends up making them pretty useless in a group setting. They've become more of a Solo/PvP bonus now pooled with [spell=16836]Brambles[/spell]. I tried it for a while, 3min is a long time and most bosses have some form of AOE that needs to be avoided and these things usually end up dying before they can do any real damage to the target because of it. In a Solo setting they are invaluable on hard elites or emergency situations when Innervate is down and youre low on mana, but other than that, the PvE uses are quite limited. Managing them during spell rotation as well as managing the cooldown is just too much to be of any solid value in group/raid.

[spell=53201]Starfall[/spell] - Yea...this...is kinda crappy. It seems cool, and it looks pretty when used, but its usefulness is limited. It becomes more of a pain to manage than being useful. Its hard to gauge its radius of effect, ive had it aggro stuff yards away that I really didnt need nor want aggro'd on me, the high mana cost and long cooldown also dont make for a solid spell. In PvP, most specifically Battlegrounds, the DPS outweighs Hurricane in that respect, however the 3min cooldown on it makes it limited in PvE whereas Hurricane has no cooldown. Its a nice novelty thing to play with, and even has some usefulness in Solo grinding, but its pretty limited as spells go and hardly worth the talent point for it. Youll get more use out of [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] in the long term. This is also "around the caster..." so that means you basically need to stand in the middle of whatever you want to hit with it which is just not always wise or practical in PvE.

Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 10:37:47 AM

Spell Rotation's and Practices

Im going to try and outline a general spell rotation I've found works well for sustained DPS in instances and you can build on it from there. Please bear in mind that a lot of this will be dependent on talent specs and also have a lot to do with your current gear set as well as the kind of latency you normally play with in addition to situational use, and by situational I mean some bosses or some fights might limit your ability to use any kind of "standard" rotation due to various obstacles, immunities, etc.

I've tried a lot of different rotations over the last few months since 3.0 and I've settled on the following rotation for good solid sustained DPS:

[spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48465]Starfire[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]

Now, results of this might vary, if you are usually playing with extremely high latency, you may want to remove [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] from the rotation and just leave in Moonfire. If you have gone with the [spell=57851]Improved Insect Swarm[/spell] talent however, you should keep it in the rotation because of the added bonus it gives to your Wrath casts.

Basically you repeat the above rotation throughout each individual mob you are currently targeting to kill. One thing to note is that if [spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] or [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] have not yet expired on the current target, you can simply skip those steps. Basically they need to be renewed when they expired and not spammed as a regular cast. You need to treat both of those spells as a DoT and not a primary attack spell as Moonfire does most of its damage over time, the initial hit isnt where the value is, especially considering the mana cost associated with it.

Normally you can work through the rotation once without having to renew Moonfire or Insect Swarm until the 3rd pass through the rotation, so your casting sequence would look something like this:

[spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48465]Starfire[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
Pass 2
[spell=48465]Starfire[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
Pass 3
[spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48465]Starfire[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]

Now, some suggestions I've seen say to alternate casts of Wrath and Starfire (Wrath, Starfire, Wrath, Starfire...etc), which I've tried and the results were kinda bleh. Others have also suggested to change the rotation of Starfire and Wrath around from what I have listed so its reversed if you play with high latency where the sequence looks something like 2 Wrath's then a Starfire. Honestly, I dont see the advantage of doing that only because its the same casts, the order is just reversed and you're throwing in more initial damage toward the mob quicker than if you open with the longer Starfire cast. My suggestion is to stick with the longer cast up front as you'll be less likely to over-aggro on the initial cast sequence if you open with a longer cast spell. Additionally, I open with [spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] for the main reason that I am still using [item]Idol of the Unseen Moon[/item] and so I'm using Moonfire to basically trigger so that my other subsequent casts benefit from that proc should it go off.

You can open with either Insect Swarm or Moonfire in any order, but you should put both at the start of your rotation before any of your primary damage spells not just if you have the [spell=57851]Improved Insect Swarm[/spell] talent, but to make managing them as a DoT easier. The basic principle should remain constant where you cast 2 Wrath's for every Starfire, whatever order you put them in is moot when it refers to DPS.

Managing Eclipse

Here's where it gets a little tricky. If you went with the [spell=48525]Eclipse[/spell] talent, managing when it goes off is going to be key to whether or not it works to your advantage in DPS. Using addons like SCT and similar to monitor your buffs is going to play a crucial role in how well you manage this talent. Its benefit is only as good as how well you take advantage of it when it goes off.

Basically, when Eclipse proc's, it can do so in 1 of 2 ways. Either way is triggered by your spell criticals with Wrath or Starfire. Both triggers look similar, its basically an image of an eclipsed sphere above your head, but they are different in color depending on what triggers it.

Wrath spell criticals will trigger Eclipse that will increase your Starfire critical rate by 30% for 15 seconds. When it goes off, the image is basically an eclipsed moon (bluish in color) both over your head and on the buff bar like shown:

[attach=1]

Starfire criticals will trigger Eclipse that increase your Wrath damage by 20% for 15 seconds. When that version goes off, its an eclipsed sun (orange in color) both over your head and on the buff bar like shown:

[attach=2]

Both proc's are accompanied by the same sound which is almost like a "whoosh" noise with a slight thundering behind it.

Now, the key to this is basically using the abilities that are getting the bonus for that 15 seconds of duration. What this means is that your normal spell rotation needs to be put aside temporarily till the buff ends. So, if you get the Starfire bonus from Eclipse, you basically should be spamming Starfire for the next 15 seconds to receive the maximum bonus from the buff. If you get the Wrath bonus from Eclipse, you should be spamming Wrath for the next 15 seconds to maximize that buff.

The biggest issues here is that you need to be able to react quickly enough to benefit from this buff when it occurs. Basically keeping an eye on your spell crits and your own self buffs will help you take full advantage of this but I wont lie, its hard to do at first. Once you get used to it however, you'll start reacting based on the sound alone. You'll basically know what spell you just cast that crit and automatically start spamming the other spell that benefits as soon as you hear the sound this buff makes.

Again, this is rough to do at first and it will definitely take some practice and experience to get used to and good at but its not impossible. If you are however on high latency connections when you play WoW, I wouldnt suggest going with this talent only because its heavily dependent on maximizing the buff time and latency will greatly affect how well it works for you.

Dont forget to resume your normal spell rotation once the buff ends. Its very easy to get caught up in the moment and continue to cast the same spell over and over even after the buff is over and also forget to renew your DoT's on the target.

Using Typhoon Properly

A.K.A. knowing how not to piss off the MT. [spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] is a handy spell, but I've seen it abused quite a lot. As I said in the talent breakdowns, its definitely a spell that can mean life saving or on the flip side also create a wipe situation for your group. Knowing when to use it in a group setting is key to it being the benefit it can be. To some extent, most of the situations I outline here could also apply to soloing as well. Basically with this spell, it wasnt designed to be spammed, which is why it has a moderate cooldown, and knowing when the right time to use it is comes with experience.

Basically, this spell knocks things back that arent immune to the mechanic. In my travels, I've learned that the knock back portion of this spell is tied to whether or not the mob is rootable. So basically if you can cast Entangle Roots on it and it isnt immune, then more than likely it can be knocked back by Typhoon.

[spell=61384]Typhoon[/spell] SHOULD NOT be added to any regular spell rotations in group/raid. I cant stress this enough. In addition to being a heavy mana sink, its also not a good idea both because of its longer cooldown and also because of how much threat and chaos it can create. How you use it soloing is entirely up to you, but again, I would strongly suggest not making it any part of a regular attack only because its range is sometimes hard to gauge and you can often aggro mobs you ordinarily wouldnt have if you had kept the cast to yourself $:-\$

This spell is primarily good as an "OMG" panic save your butt spell or as a moderate substitute to Hurricane in some situations. Because of the damage this can do to groups of mobs and its ability to crit, its sometimes a better alternative to casting Hurricane when bits of AOE are necessary. Small, low health mobs that need to be burned down quickly are heavily susceptible to this and thats when this spell shines the most.

In situations where this might come in handy for a life saving situation, instances where perhaps the healer or other range DPS have managed to pull aggro on some mobs somehow, you can position yourself in a way where this spell can actually be used to not only knock the mobs back off the people who have aggro, but also closer to the tank to allow them to grab them up.

Why you shouldnt spam this spell:

Basically this spell is a pain in the ass for tanks. When you knock back a mob away from a tank, you risk knocking it back enough where aggro range is reset (see: Omen 2 Guide) and it can cause havoc with a tanks threat build, especially when you have fights where DPS might be pushing the very limits of aggro. Also, its just a hassle, tanks dont need to be running around any more than they need to and this spell just creates more of that unnecessarily.

The spell cast interrupt effect of this spell is secondary to its knock back. Its basically an after effect of the knock back. This means if the mob is immune to being tossed around, then using this spell to try and interrupt casting isnt going to work.

This spell is just outright hilarious in PvP and also, if you manage to pull aggro on a mob, this spell can be used to buy the tank time to get it off you by pushing it back. Ive managed to time this with an immediate [spell=53308]Entangling Roots[/spell] cast basically preventing the mob from hitting me entirely till the tank can grab it.

Managing Omen of Clarity

This is another big learning curve for Moonkin DPS. Prior to 3.0, [spell=16864]Omen of Clarity[/spell] only was triggered from physical attacks, meaning you had to go run up and beat on stuff to get it to go off. This is no longer the case and it goes off quite a bit now on just about anything. Ive had it trigger off buffing all the way to cooking food.

Managing this bonus buff is the hard part and sometimes can become a challenge when you become focused on a fight. It also throws complication in on any spell rotation you have working. Basically you can handle this in 2 ways.

First, which would be the most efficient use of it, would be to cast your next most mana intensive spell when it goes off. Now to do this, you would again, like I discussed about Eclipse, need to be closely monitoring your self buffs for when this thing goes off. AS SOON AS YOU FINISH CASTING the next spell, this charge gets used. That means that if you dont watch it and catch it in time, you can burn it up on a Wrath cast in no time at all. My suggestion on this is that you basically alter your rotation when this goes off to accommodate Starfire. So basically the situation would look something like:

[spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] (If needs to be renewed)
[spell=48465]Starfire[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
Omen of Clarity Proc
[spell=48465]Starfire[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
[spell=48461]Wrath[/spell]
etc...

Now the other way, is just to let it play out which "works" but its not the best or more efficient use of the talent. What I mean by let it play out is basically just keep casting when it goes off unless you are between casts and can actually adjust for it. You'll still get the mana savings from it, it just wont be the best and most optimal savings you can get. On trash you can probably get away with this second method more and not notice the impact, but on Bosses and long fights, I would suggest optimizing it like I outlined above.

Moonfire and Insect Swarm as DoT's

To optimize both [spell=48463]Moonfire[/spell] and [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] casts, you need to treat them like DoT's. Spamming either isnt going to have any real effect and is basically just wasting mana. The full impact of both spells is felt when they run their full duration. Basically with a good level of spell damage, both of these together can account for a large portion of DPS, especially on long fights like bosses. On trash and short duration fights, you likely wont notice much as mobs will seldom live through 1 or 2 renews of either, but bosses is where its make or break.

As I outlined above, both should be included in any standard spell rotation, even if you dont end up using the one I listed.

What I would also suggest is that you get 2 Glyph's pertaining to Moonfire specifically.

[item]Glyph of Moonfire[/item] - This is just awesome in maximizing the effectiveness of Moonfire as a DoT. Your initial strikes are going to be nerfed, but Moonfire was never intended to be a spam spell which is why its mana cost is so high compared to other spells. If you use Moonfire in PvP as a "finisher" to polish off people low on health, then this isnt a good Glyph to get for yourself. However for pure PvE DPS, this is basically a must have.
[item]Glyph of Starfire[/item] - I suggest this Glyph because this makes spell rotations a lot easier. You will spend less time renewing Moonfire and save yourself some mana in the process as well as giving yourself more time to use your other abilities. This doesnt seem like much, but with a solid set rotation, this will definitely show you benefits.

Theres another Glyph thats been suggested on a lot of boards to maximize DPS as well:

[item]Glyph of Insect Swarm[/item]

Basically I'm torn personally on this one. I rather like the reduced chance to hit on mobs and bosses as it makes the life of healers a little easier, especially in raids. However, if you are looking to maximize your DPS output, this would definitely be something to look into. The mana cost of [spell=48468]Insect Swarm[/spell] is really low, and so this Glyph basically optimizes the spell incredibly as a DoT upping your overall damage output. Again, this is one of those things where you have to decide what you look to achieving more, DPS or Flexibility.

Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 10:37:56 AM

This is a work in progress and I intend to add and alter it as needed. Please feel free to comment here and debate, again, my suggestions are just that, suggestions and in no way should they be taken as "expert" advice. No one can honestly claim to be an expert in the game no matter how much time and effort they devote to it so please use this advice with your own experiences and hopefully it will help you come to settle on your own build and practices.

Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 10:38:04 AM

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Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 10:38:11 AM

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Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 10:38:19 AM

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Shadowwolf · December 06, 2008, 10:38:28 AM

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Fab · December 06, 2008, 06:18:54 PM

Thought I'd pinch here a bit.

I've played this spec pretty much since day 1. I've also read 100's of different forums topics on Moonkin DPS rotations and "the best" PvE builds. I also pride myself on trying to max out my numbers in any raid situation.
Much of what Shadow has said here is, right-on-he-button accurate, but I wanted to comment on 1 or 2 minor things concerning the build you have set up.

1) Eclipse- I've looked in the forums with those crazy number crunchers, who make insane excel speadsheets on this stuff, and as of now, they've come to the conclusion that going 3/3 in this talent, will yield a dps increase (albeit minor) in an ideal raid situation (ie- one where you really don't have to move much; like Patchwerk in Naxx or Brut. in SWP)
ALTHOUGH
The over-all concensus on this talent is to skip it, according to some resident moonkin experts (look up Murmur <--very intelligent on this subject matter-I'll try to find the link on his number crunching). In theory/on paper it does yield an increase, but you'd literally have to be a computer to get thatresult every time. In the end, it's just too much work, for little if any return in dps. (although the image of it proccing is nice!)
Shadow said she'd discuss this talent in more detail, and how you should play with it if you specc into it, so I'll leave that for her.

2) Skipping Nature's Grace- In my opinion, you just don't skip this. There was an uproar when they upped it to 3 points, but that was to deter the resto druids from taking it. That point alone shows that this talent was essentially made for moonkins. I've yet to see a build from a reliable source without it. There may be builds out there without it, but in all honesty, you should have it 100% of the time.

The make up for these 3 points, I would drop Owlkin Frenzy and put them into Nature's Grace. Owlkin Frenzy is meant for PvP. You should not be getting hit as a ranged caster in a raid situation very often for it to proc.
In bg's/Arena, you'll be getting pounded, so only then does it really become useful, and proc like mad from my experience.

So, in conclusion, Eclipse could be dropped for Trees, +1 in master shapeshifter (+2% damage on al spells) and 1 point dumped somewhere else. Andsimply swap Owlkin Frenzy for Nature's Grace.
My Ideal Build (completley PvE):

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIscdhVzRuZbxcub

Shadowwolf · December 07, 2008, 03:51:56 AM

I believe unless you have a decently high crit rate, Nature's Grace isnt going to give you much of a value because its not going to be triggering often enough to be of a considerable DPS increase. You can easily get the same value on a more constant level with spell haste which seems to be on just about everything these days in WotLK. Spell haste will not only improve cast times, it will reduce the GCD which will allow you to get more casts in that will affect your overall DPS. Nature's Grace doesnt affect the GCD on all spells, only Wrath and from all accounts it also doesnt stack with haste. The value of this talent increases as you improve gear and get better spell crit, but honestly I think results can be debated. In my use of it, I personally have not seen enough of a value from it freshly at 80 to keep it right now. As my gear improves I may change that but for the moment I find better value in other talents.

As far as Owlkin Frenzy, its handy in Heroics as I've used it. It goes off quite a lot and in situations of AOE if you dont have a tank, its a free barkskin. Additionally, it procs from aura's and things that dont necessarily damage you but affect you so its value at the moment isnt completely limited to PvP. That could very well be a bug with the game, but who knows. Yes, by nature its designed for being more of a PvP and Solo talent, but again, its up to the individual to decide where to spend those 3 points. If you very well wanted you could take those 3 points and move them to Nature's Grace and see how that works for you looking something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIoIdhVuMhZbxcuo

People can number crunch all they want, the only people I consider "experts" are Blizz and they wont come out and tell people what the ideal build is for Balance for PvE DPS. I believe that personal experience and individual play style have a serious impact on what build works for what people and while there may be a default "template" of sorts from people who claim to crunch the numbers on things, how you play, your ability to react, your latency, gear, etc all have an effect on what build works best for you.

My overall goal here is to give people a jumping off point and explain out some talents based on my experience so they can make an educated decision on their spec. I dont believe any spec is necessarily "wrong", just inefficient, foolishly outlined or uneducated would be the better words. The spec I've outlined above isnt a pure min/max spec because thats not my style, I like to include some flexibility in my builds as well which is what I've done above. I'd imagine a pure Raid DPS spec would be slightly different from what I've put together but the above works for me so thats what I intend to stick with till my gear changes some. =)

Kothnok · December 07, 2008, 11:12:50 AM

Quote[wowitem]Glyph of Moonfire[/wowitem] - This is just awesome in maximizing the effectiveness of Moonfire as a DoT. ...

When I considered this glyph before WotLK launched back at level 70, I found that I would be giving up 750 initial damage for 500 DoT damage. I wasn't worth it as it lowered my overall damage output. Maybe things change by the time I get to 80.

Shadowwolf · December 07, 2008, 11:41:21 AM

It works better partnered with [item]Glyph of Starfire[/item] where youll see a better return.

fallingleafs · February 08, 2009, 02:19:18 PM

Wow now this post appears....

After spending countless hours on about 100 websites looking for moonie info I find our guild seems to be taking the reigns when it comes to theory crafting moonkin style...

Shadow thank you for your time invested into this. Even at 70 when I thought I was the end all of knowledge to the moonkin you still found ways to correct my thinking. Now 80 is no different and in fact the theory is all the more intensive. However I have my own ideas which I have formulated through countless hours of 5, 10 and 25 man instances. Also the many hours blasting away at practice dummies.

I suppose my story starts about a month ago when Apolla suggested I try a new build which I had been looking at but unsure how to proceed. Now we all probably can agree that there is not an end all build but there are certainly some talents which must be included and the rest will be an ongoing debate.

Firstly elitistjerks forums seems like a good place to start as this is a site where gamers seem to have met their inner math nerds but if you can get past the math which isn't easy and probably not 100 % correct we have an idea what talents are a must and which ones are debated....

Personally I found out my best dps rotation on the practice dummies

is MF-IS-SFX4 rinse repeat....

However I am waiting for Eclipse to proc as my DPS numbers increase dramatically when Eclipse procs and Wrath Crits...

I tried mixing the rotation with Starfire and Wrath and a few other combination of the two but my numbers weren't getting close to the above mentioned rotation. It also makes an Eclipse proc all the more difficult to maintain when Starfire is your primary spell and Eclipse procs its a no brainer as you simply need to fire wrath as fast as you can for 15 seconds!

A few things to consider at the time my gear was average at best(Still not stellar) but definitely a lot better.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Fallingleafs

I believe my talents are similar to fabs with a few differences on the balance side of things.

I am not ready to give up my trees yet they are my friends! Tree's are hard to calculate for DPS value simply because we don't use them every chance we can and limit them to boss fights which allow it. Maybe one day I will drop this talent but for now I am keeping them.

Dreamstate which i always have used has been replaced by intensity for me. Now I could always use a little more mana as I seem to burn through it as my haste continues to increase and maybe could come back to Dreamstate I would definitely revisit this in the near future. I would love to keep this and always think about it when im oomkin towards the end of a long boss fight.

Owlkin Frenzy I have completely removed in favor of natures grace and quite frankly with all the haste increase I am wondering how important this talent still is. In fact my next build will be figuring out if I will use those points towards dreamstate or owlkin frenzy or maybe a little of both.... AS of now I am leaning towards more mana.

I have tons of notes and information some good some bad on the subject but now that we have an official thread on this here I would like to see this board as a one stop shop for Boomie info.

Don't worry Shadow your boomkin brothers and sisters wont leave you wanting more in Raids in fact I think we have a few pretty good ones who have improved as gear has gotten better. Anyway thanks for starting this thread I feel like we have something to work with now.

Moonkin DPS @ 80 = Suggested Specs, Spell Rotations and Practices

fallingleafs