Gear in relation to classes...

[Shadowwolf]

Alrighty, since that Priest in our ZG tonight was rude about his issues with allowing a Paladin to roll on [wowitem]Zulian Headdress[/wowitem], Gren suggested it might make a good thread for discussion on here.

My feeling on it is this, our healers in the guild are Paladins and Priests primarily, which, is probably the same for other guilds as well when it comes to raiding. While ive never played a Paladin myself, I have played with many, and have also played my Shaman which is similar who I chose to spec Restoration and every run except one SM with her, ive been the primary and only healer in an instance. Ive seen Druids, Paladins and Shamans outheal preists many times, it all depends on the player, spec and knowledge of the class. Theres been times I ran though places with some of you evern before my 2nd run as a Resto on Shadow and was still Balance specd but was the only healer.

Now, armor type, should have no bearing on the class if they can benefit from the stats based on the role they play for the guild or in group. Yes, priests have only cloth items to chose from and a Paladin can wear cloth, plate, mail, whatever. I would like to think theres a good reason they did this when designing the classes and the restrictions. Is it fair? Well, depending from what point you look at it yes and no. Is it fair a priest can only use cloth items and has a smaller pool to chose from in good gear? Prob not if you see it that way. However, is it fair to restrict a paladin who heals and is specd for healing to only plate items. No, its not. Why limit one class to make it "fair" for another, makes no sense.

Its simply who benefits from the stats benefits the guild and the group in the end. We've never restricted people on items based on class and never will nor have we assigned a "priority" for items for the same reasons. We've been restricting to a point on items like [wowitem]Primalist's Band[/wowitem] whereby it would make no sense to have a Warrior or Rogue roll on it when you have mana users in the group that need it. I think that is just common sense. When we have ever gotten an item that drops someone can use and benefit from, no one has ever been denied a chance to it if they can use it.

I think in the end, stats are the important factor unless you are melee, then you have to balance armor with stats because youre going to be taking hits. Thats just how I see it at least.

[Emmalina]

I don't think an item is more or less of an improvement for someone just because it doesn't fit their standard. If a paladin heals, and he/she wants a +heal item that drops, by all means they should roll. We're here to enjoy the game, and I think part of enjoying it and keeping it casual is that we allow people to roll on items that they want. I would not begrudge a paladin or druid rolling on a cloth piece, nor should a hunter dislike rolling against a rogue, a 'lock against a mage or so on. I seriously doubt anyone is going to make any outrageous rolls like a warrior rolling on something with +spell damage or anything of the like that will upset everyone, and I think imparting specific restrictions on who gets what is another step to making us a raid-esque guild. We should all be happy that fellow guildies got something they like rather than be upset that we didn't in my opinion.

Emma

[Kothnok]

While I agree so far on what's been said, I'd also like to point out that gear designed for multiple classes are given the least restrictive armor class so any can wear.  Take the [wowitem]Spider Belt[/wowitem] for example.  It's cloth so that any class can wear it; not so that only cloth wearers could use it.  The designers take this into account when making other items too.  Cloth gear that's great for healing is meant so that ANY class that heals and can wear cloth should be able to aquire and use it, not just "cloth-only" wearers.  Granted it's considered good etiquette to let the more restrictive armor classes first crack at it, but there's a reason plate wearers aren't restricted to just plate/mail armor.

[Genoism]

while i'd like to think the designers let pallies wear leather, cloth and mail for a reason i think that it wasn't a very well thought out reason. Has any warrior out there found any reason to wear cloth....ever??? Has any hunter out there wornt cloth for any reason? Hope not...there's no cloth out there to benefit them. Anyone can say, ya but even though i can wear plate that cloth is better then my plate item....even so, i feel that priests get the shaft here because they have a FAR smaller pool of items to chose from then any other class in the game. And here we're going to give it away to any class that can wear it?

While i understand the need to not restrict items or give them priority, i think we should still keep some common sense about what item goes where. Plate DOES drop just as often as cloth, yes for pallies, just happens to be that the bosses we are killing loot tables drop blues mostly for cloths. Once we get to the other bosses cloth people wont see as much blue cloth stuff drop.

So YES it does benefit the healer class, however, flash heal benefits more from +heals then the flash heal pallies have. I have about +250 healing on my pally, my flash heals without blessing of light add about 40 more hp to the heal....not a whole lot from that 250. Mainly because its a quick cast and an initial low amount of hp. Priests on the other hand have a slower flash heal that heals for a lot more, a LOT more. They have far more benefit from +healing then pallies do. For this reason pallies gear sometimes is more about how much mana per 5 sec u regen over how much +healing u have. Obviously pallies will gain the full benefit of their +healing if they use their big heal but those are incredibly slow, and highly mana ineffecient, a few of those and you'll be oom before you know it. Pally plate gear is more suited for pallies with sometimes more +heal or int then cloth would have and hence why priests can't use it.

End point, while we think we're helping the raid I feel we are slowing it down by giving away cloth to pallies if the priests could use it. If they have better, then im all for letting them have it, but if a priest can use it more, then they should get priority. By not doing this, we're letting our priests progress slower and we're wasting good gear on the pallies because they will replace them with the plate version drops. Aside all that though, there's also the fact that our priests are the most important element of our raid, and the hardest to get, I think that we should reward them a little more then saying another class can use it too. I've lvled a priest and a pally to 60, i got utterly sick of staring at health bars at raids and it takes a really brave kind of person to be able to put up with it and enjoy it in my opinion. They have the toughest job in any raid as well.

Im all for not restricting gear as long as there is common sense involved, but I would personally make an exception for priests and give them priority in this case because they have so little to roll on already. If we're going to let priests roll on dmg gear, pallies on cloth, hunters on warrior tanking weapons and resto druids on rogue gear, we're going to be in ZG for a very very long time. But then again, if this is what everyone wants to do(not the part about being in zg for a long time), then I'll go with it. Im just here to have fun, but if ppl are looking to progress at a decent rate then we should rethink about loot distribution somewhat.

[Lyte]

I just don't know how I feel about this.  If a plate piece dropped that had +healing and +int, etc., I wouldn't expect a warrior to roll on it just because it had slightly more armor on it than his.  I'd expect it to be given to the pallies.  I guess my personal opinion would be that I think the priests should have been given priority to that item.  It seems normally we get alot of plate drops over cloth drops, but I could be wrong I guess.  If there were no priests that needed it, I would say give it to the other classes then that would upgrade from it, but likely be replaced soon.

[genny]

As far as itemization goes, it seems that there are plenty of items in the loot table for pallies to roll on without stepping on priests toes, same goes for druids (in the horde guild, we have a really good feral druid who passes on all the tier drops just due to focus it has on healing).  And in this instance, they have limited the ability to roll on items to certain classes.

This isn't to say that there aren't items that aren't able to be used by multiple classes because we all know there certainly are - check the loot tables http://wow-loot.com/raid_zg.htm  (Best fits are 4-5 stars)

If a paladin wanted flowing ritual robes, I'd disagree with that need.   And if a Warrior wanted a plate item with +int and +healing, just because it has more AC, but less stam, def, str, agi, etc (Depending on spec) I'd have to question their knowledge of the class.

Some items are meant to be used by all classes, but with many raid drops - cloth and such, I think is where the line needs to be drawn.

[Arcdelad]

for a perfect example of this, I suggest anyone who has doubts about what shadow says run an instance with Voctavian...with all due respect to our great priests (I have said before I feel we have some of the best priests in Alexstrazza), Voc does just as good a job as they do healing....he just doesnt have shackle....Voc uses quite a bit of cloth and leather, even though he could wear plate...

[Krieg]

This seems pretty clear to me...

If both classes can benefit, then they should both roll.  It's fair and equitable.

I have been on both sides of this coin and ,even though I can be frustrated by my luck, I don't expect someone to decline a roll.

You can't make comparisons between two classes because even though many have similar roles, each play their parts differently.

I understand the frustration of losing the roll and the disappointment in missing out on a beneficial item due to random fate.

It is still the best method to distribute items that many classes and players could benefit from.

[Genoism]

This seems pretty clear to me...

If both classes can benefit, then they should both roll.  It's fair and equitable.

I have been on both sides of this coin and ,even though I can be frustrated by my luck, I don't expect someone to decline a roll.

You can't make comparisons between two classes because even though many have similar roles, each play their parts differently.

I understand the frustration of losing the roll and the disappointment in missing out on a beneficial item due to random fate.

It is still the best method to distribute items that many classes and players could benefit from.

the issue is more about how MUCH the class benefits. Like i said before, pallies don't get as much benefit from cloth healing gear as priests do, and i explained why. We're clearly not stupid enough to give a warrior a pally item just because it has a little more armor, but it gets blurry when we have a pally and a priest who want the same cloth item. Giving a class an item that would benefit one class more then another should prolly be discussed with both sides before just saying, 'class x and class y, etc: roll on {item}'

I've seen hunters roll on weapons with 'chance on hit' or just because they look cool while others lost out when they could have greatly benefitted while the hunter instead gimped himself only to replace his weapon shortly after realizing it was a mistake...its happened a lot of times, not just with hunters but u get the idea.

[voctovian]

Ultimately, the benefit of an item completely depends upon how the toon is specced and how they are played.  In a raid, any healer who uses large, high mana heals will primarily need +int (for a larger mana pool) and +spi (for mana regen between casts).  A spam healer, who is constantly casting lower rank (or fast cast) heals will benefit with +healing gear.  The benefit of +healing is the same for a slow cast or multiple fast casts, provided the spam healer is casting continuously.  Spam healing tends to have higher overhealing, but provided you dont run out of mana, it is great for supporting the whole raid.

According to wowwiki, the benefit is 42% for instant and 1.5 sec cast spells, so a pally (flash of light) at +400 healing will heal about 168 extra points than with no +healing equipment.  I have confirmed this with my testing (Kaid beat me in too many duels..) 

Ultimately, this is all about a team, if the healers have kept the tanks vertical, the boss will go down. 

Voc

[Grendeel]

Well Geno and Lyte pretty much covered everything i wouldve had to say on this 

Just to add i bit,  I dont think allowing pallys to have equal priority over priests, is being fair.  This gives the pally twice as many loot opportunites as a priest imo.  Yes, pallys can benefit from the plus healing gear (as Voc has shown in many raids), however a priest can benefit more from them (as Geno pointed out).   I see nothing wrong with allowing priests first priority over pallys for cloth, provided the item is needed.  If we dont do this, then we are going to have an unbalanced progression, in terms of gear between different classes.

For individual character development, no priorities on cloth items would be the way to go.  However, in the best interest of the guild and raid, wouldnt it be better to have classes develop equally as time goes by?

With that said, whichever way this ends up, im quite satisfied it will not cause problems with the guild.   When you have a guild where you see an arguement:  "you take it"  no  "you take it"    no " i want u to have that drop"., i dont think any issues will arise.   I never dreamt id see 2 people arguing why the other person should take the drop 

[dharq]

Am I safe in assuming that the priest and paladin in question here were pickups? If so, that brings up a major concern because it could tarnish our guild's image. In guild, we all understand and try to be fair distributing loot to each other. I think we're all good about rolling on things only when we really need them--not just rolling out of greed.

I think there needs to be some clarification though for cases when we do have pickup members and such.

I don't think it's unreasonable to restrict the first choice on an item to the class that's most "needy"... For example, with armor, classes are limited to specific types--not all classes will benefit equally from it. For example, priests can only use cloth, so if a cloth +healing item drops, I don't think it's incredibly harsh to restrict it to priests--other classes have higher rank armors they can wear. I don't think it's unreasonable to give the first option on a cloth item to only those classes that are completely restricted to it. If no one who's restricted to only that item is needing it, then I think allowing anyone who needs it to roll is perfectly fair.

At the same time, weapons, rings, cloaks, etc are not as heavily restricted. I think the open rolling policy is very fitting there because any class that can use that item can benefit equally from it.

Basically, I just think armor items are a bit different from weapons or others in that some classes are restricted to only cloth for upgrades--while others have 4 pools of armor to choose from. I also think it's better for our reputation when we pickup random fillers to have this type of policy--it appears more fair and impartial.

[Shadowwolf]

The guild image isnt at risk in any way, the Priest was a PUG and won that very helm off the Snake, in which it dropped again off the bat and no more priests were in the group. Suddenly letting a Pally roll on it became a huge debate thereafter. The pally that won the roll was Randomperson, who does nothing but heal in groups as hes specd for it all the way.

Another Pally we had that was PUGd even saw it as normal to do what we did but apparently the Priest felt pallys had no right to that item at all. His justification and I quote "No other classes can beat priests in healing, the WoW website says so".

In the sense of if we had 2 priests in the group and one had the other 1 still needed it, yes id be more inclined to try and give the priest dibs, but in all honesty, a healer is a healer regardless of class as I see it personally. Would I want a pally to deprive a priest of good gear, no, but I also want to be able to help that pally do thier job as well as possible too.

[Kaidelina]

I play both a pally and a priest so this issue is quite important to me.

First off, i would like to say that i think it was very poor form for this priest to agree to come to ZG at lvl 58, roll on AND win the item in question, get pissed off and not heal during the last boss fight (think he was hoping that we would wipe), and then proceed to criticize the guild and it's loot policy.  Personally, i think this is one of the fairest and most considerate guilds on the realm, and am proud to be part of it.

Back to the question at hand.  I am a bit divided.

Despite the source and the offence way it was brought up, i think there is a valid point here.  Priests have it tough in that they can ONLY wear cloth while other healing classes have other options.  As such, i think that priests should have the first opportunity to roll on cloth healing items.  If none of the priests want, then i think it fair to let others roll.  This would hold true on a plate piece with intel or mana regen.  If no pally's want it and a warrior does, by all means, give them a chance to roll for it.

Would i have liked to have that head piece and would it have helped with my healing as a pally?  Absolutely!!  But, i would not want to take it at the expense of one of our priests.  As a pally, i will have more opportunities to improve my gear.  

Having said that, i would say that the best healing gear in the game is primarily cloth.  That is where the difficulty comes in.  Seems that bliz thinks that healing stats and increased armour class are contraindicated.

>sigh<  time to reroll a rogue i think.....

[magnetite]

Some cloth items have better healing stats for paladins. Windsocket wears mail, plate, and even cloth I believe at times.