Ventrilo and Flamers

[suslik]

Yea so this is something i seem to notice alot. Anyone ever says anything about ventrilo being helpful and a group of people seem to think its a must to Bash the person using comments such as "If you feel the need to use voice com you don't know your class"... Ventrilo is something newish and yes it can be a helpful thing. Its bothersome that a few people would rather bash a person for stating a opinion.  Ventrilo has absolutly nothing to do with knowing or not knowing your class, its just something to help with communcation and team work. Its my opinion that nobody should be getting bashed for stating a simple thought on something that wasn't harmful to anyone in any way. It saddens me to see a immatury level from grown adults. Thats it for my rant.

[Blackjack]

i know i may be young.. and my opinions not very considered or thought of as important, which i understand.

However, i agree with sus. 


It is my opinion, that when a topic with different views is being discussed people should consider each others points. And not just say how the other is in the wrong.

[Shadowwolf]

I dont agree with saying "if you dont know your class you should use voice" and the person who made that statement is wrong for saying that. I dont know where this is coming from or what conversation this took place in but yea, its kind of rude to put it in those exact words, however...if the wording were slightly different in saying the same thing basically, that too is an opinion like yours. Something like "People who dont know their class well enough would find voice systems beneficial". Now thats not outright attacking anyone, its making an opinionated statement, more so if they backed it up with examples or observations. If you take it as an attack stated that way thats your onus.

Theres pros and cons to everything and people can make an argument for any side if thats what they believe in, im a firm believer in an argument can be made for anything if someone truly feels strongly about it. Both sides of this topic can be pretty nasty to each other as ive seen first hand which is why this topic doesnt belong in our guild chat as its caused many a heated debate in times past. People have reasons for being for or against it and as far as I see just about all of them either or are just, but its just not something that should be discussed in game chat as many have a personal dislike or like for it and the conversation usually takes a nasty turn as you pointed out, be it in guild, on general chat, in raid, whatever.

[suslik]

I dont agree with saying "if you dont know your class you should use voice" and the person who made that statement is wrong for saying that. I dont know where this is coming from or what conversation this took place in but yea, its kind of rude to put it in those exact words, however...if the wording were slightly different in saying the same thing basically, that too is an opinion like yours. Something like "People who dont know their class well enough would find voice systems beneficial". Now thats not outright attacking anyone, its making an opinionated statement, more so if they backed it up with examples or observations. If you take it as an attack stated that way thats your onus.

I disagree, if someone is saying they are for ventrilo then stating something like "People who dont know their class well enough would find voice systems beneficial" is directly saying they do not know there class.  Because the person making this statement now knows this player finds Voice communcation benefial so its a stab at another player. Its sad that any conversation turns like that.  There is never any real good reason to throw a jab at someone just because you dislike there opinion or ideas. Its just plain immature and rude. not to mention it makes people afraid to say there thoughts ideas or opinions to the guild, wich i personaly don't think is a good feeling for anyone to have.

I also feel it sorta falls under.. lets see if i can quote it right new with this html stuff

This also means the days of harsh criticism or know-it-all'ness in regards to whats the best method to do whatever in the game are OVER. We all play this game for its enjoyment and to learn and experience new things, theres nothing wrong with passing along that information to others, but we will all do it in a constructive and polite manner. This means if I get complaints of someone making others feel stupid or lesser because they dont know something or they do something differently you're going to hear about it. Everyone gets a warning, but if things continue then thats it.

As it really is kinda harsh insueating (sp) someone doesn't know how to play there class simply because they find ventrilo benefical. Its a very harsh criticism and a know it allness behavior, In my most humble opinion.

[Shadowwolf]

Its not a jab if thats based on their observations. I think you might be taking the topic too personally in that you think its an attack on you. Their statement could be coming from past experiences and it didn't encompass everyone who uses voice, you are reading words that aren't there. Saying "People who don't know their class well enough would find voice systems beneficial" doesn't say anything about everyone who uses voice and it also doesn't single you out specifically. Its not generalizing everyone thats pro voice chat, its making a statement about people who don't know their classes well. Now the way you described how they said it IS an insult, thats not in question, but the way I typed it as it could have been worded is not.

Again it depends on how the statement is worded, goes back to the old saying of "What you say is not as important as how you say it". This is how arguments in these type of discussions generally start, when one person misreads or misunderstands whats being said or takes it on a personal level. You should never take any debate personally, if you do, you are going to get insulted no matter if the other person intends to do it or not, you will end up taking something they said as an insult to yourself BECAUSE you take the topic personally.

People are going to disagree, its part of life. You cant make a statement in public setting and not expect someone who disagrees with it to say something. Thats why this country and most of the world is free, it allows everyone to express opinions contrary to others.

Yes I agree with the you in that its immature and rude to resort to insults in a debate in order to try and "win" it, but honestly like I said, if you dont take the topic personally then those things dont happen. Problem is most people take debates to heart and thats why this happens.

[Shadowwolf]

I dont agree with saying "if you dont know your class you should use voice" and the person who made that statement is wrong for saying that. I dont know where this is coming from or what conversation this took place in but yea, its kind of rude to put it in those exact words, however...if the wording were slightly different in saying the same thing basically, that too is an opinion like yours. Something like "People who dont know their class well enough would find voice systems beneficial". Now thats not outright attacking anyone, its making an opinionated statement, more so if they backed it up with examples or observations. If you take it as an attack stated that way thats your onus.

I disagree, if someone is saying they are for ventrilo then stating something like "People who dont know their class well enough would find voice systems beneficial" is directly saying they do not know there class.  Because the person making this statement now knows this player finds Voice communcation benefial so its a stab at another player. Its sad that any conversation turns like that.  There is never any real good reason to throw a jab at someone just because you dislike there opinion or ideas. Its just plain immature and rude. not to mention it makes people afraid to say there thoughts ideas or opinions to the guild, wich i personaly don't think is a good feeling for anyone to have.

I also feel it sorta falls under.. lets see if i can quote it right new with this html stuff

This also means the days of harsh criticism or know-it-all'ness in regards to whats the best method to do whatever in the game are OVER. We all play this game for its enjoyment and to learn and experience new things, theres nothing wrong with passing along that information to others, but we will all do it in a constructive and polite manner. This means if I get complaints of someone making others feel stupid or lesser because they dont know something or they do something differently you're going to hear about it. Everyone gets a warning, but if things continue then thats it.

As it really is kinda harsh insueating (sp) someone doesn't know how to play there class simply because they find ventrilo benefical. Its a very harsh criticism and a know it allness behavior, In my most humble opinion.

Well then you need to speak with an officer who was there when this took place and we can handle it from there.

I will also say that I have said time and time again, DO NOT talk about voice comm topics in guild chat. If you didnt listen to my warnings then you asked for this to occur if it did in fact take place in guild chat. Does that make it right, no, of course not, but if you are going to do things I asked everyone not to because I know the results always end up badly, then this sort of thing is going to happen. Certain topics do not belong in guild chat as they get out of hand, this along with DKP has become one of them. If you feel you need to discuss, use this forum for it.

[suslik]

Yea, I don' think i was on when you said not to mention it in Guild chat but i can defintly see why. Wich is why i moved it into rant. I do how ever feel its a little frustating people choose to bash other people simply because they like to suggest something new.  I love the friendly enviroment here, I just feel some of us should be able to feel we can speak more openly without the fear of being bashed. It takes away from the fun of the game. I can see someone who dislikes ventrilo to say something like "I don't like ventrilo because it distracts from the game due to too many people talking at once" Its a valid arguement i seen it happen myself. But to turn around and bash someone even in a indirect way is harmful to the guild in a way, Because im not sure about how the others felt that was there and was on the side for ventrilo but it makes me feel like not really making any suggestions at all. Out of fear of being bashed again. Idk if that makes sense to you but its just how i feel.

[Shadowwolf]

Thats a topic where too many people have personal feelings for or against it. Its evident by the numerous times some of our people are shunned and made to feel like second class players because they dont use voice on PUGs they've been on so these types of responses are going to be generated. Same applies to the topic of DKP. Too many times these things become personal to people because of bad past experiences and bringing them up for discussion in a live setting like guild chat is not wise as they come out. Its come up before and its gotten out of hand and I had to end it before it got really bad.

Its the same reason we dont talk about politics, religion, etc. Yes its frustrating, yes its insulting, no it shouldn't happen, but I can speak with those involved if this bothers you badly enough, however I was not on to witness this so I dont know the conversation so I dont know what was said. If it happens again then ill take action, however if people dont adhere to my warnings then there isnt much I can do about shielding you all from this type of scenario.

You can feel free to speak openly about stuff, but suggestions on things be they changes or new should be discussed HERE, on the forum. Because when you suggest them in a setting like guild chat, 1) you aren't talking to the whole guild to see the discussion as not everyone is online at the same time, 2) it could be something thats not "new" and has already been discussed and searching the forum for it will maybe answer your thoughts on it before you reignite the topic for debate, and 3) its less likely to get out of hand on the forum when everyone is present to be able to participate.

Guild chat is for fun, enjoyment, communicating with other members, etc, not for debating topics. Thats why we have this system. All I ask is that everyone use these things for their purpose and these things wont happen.

[Darkling]

I'm not going to rant. I am going to say that I was the one who said it. However, my words were twisted around. I'm not going to quote exactly what I said in that conversation because I don't remember everything I said. But what I was saying was stuff like '..that warrior that wants to go scout LM while 4 horde there is stupid. That's not knowing your role in a group....'

I was not bashing anyone personally, nor was I bashing any classes as a whole. It was a debate that got started by either Suslik or Blackhammer, I don't remember. But think about it guys, whenever you guys start a 'topic', you force it into a debate or argument. Just have a conversation, and no arguments will be started. But continue the argument, then you are going to get responses and eventually you will start taking it as a personal bashing.

No one is going to see things the same way as you. That's life. And if you start an argument or debate, accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you and you won't take anything personal. 

[Blackjack]

I dont think it was a 'debate' that i or suslik started. Sus's sentence was something like tis "A pvp team works well with these three things, voice communication, organization and cooperation"

All i did was agree with that, and put forward my reasons. And for a while the opinions went back and forth, both with good arguments making guild chat at the time a place where a good discussion was happening. I agree on both sides, Voice com is sometimes distracting in the game when it over flows with chatter. But on the other hand i also think that voice com is good when u need to make a fast decsion of something like that. I was giving credit to both sides.

It was a debate that got started by either Suslik or Blackhammer,

Just discussing something that should've been done mildy shouldn't become into a heated debate.. I dont think i started anything like it.

[Shadowwolf]

Debates and discussions like that shouldn't take place in guild chat, period.

We have a forum for a reason and with a statement like that its no wonder there was a sparked debate as thats inviting one.

[Blackjack]

i dont see how such a minute thing would

period.

[Shadowwolf]

i dont see how such a minute thing would

period.

If youre going to be a smart ass about this with me then we are going to have a problem Black. Theres no need to mock my words.

A statement that generalizes about something thats opinionated is bound to spark controversy. Thats the issue here. Saying "A pvp team works well with these three things, voice communication, organization and cooperation" says to people that in order for them to be successful, voice communication is a MUST. Its not, thats opinion, but its being brought across as fact and thats what sparks debate. No one can make a statement such as that and not expect people to speak up against it who might disagree.

What im saying here is you cant make opinionated statements and pass them off as facts and not expect to get flak over it from people who disagree. As such im telling everyone, that does not belong in guild chat. If you say it, you deserve the responses you get which in the best interest of keeping the peace and not fueling disdain amongst members, its best to save those things for the forum. People have a better chance to think out what they want to say more then in guild chat and thats why its better to do it here.

Fueling debates in guild chat is a disturbance to the rest of the guild and selfish to do. Everyone has opinions, everyone has the right to disagree with those opinions, but what you do not have a right to do is fight and debate about who is right and wrong in the presence of 30-40 other people who happen to be online at the same time. No 2 people own guild chat, its shared with everyone else in the guild online at the time, thats the point im trying to make here. Starting these debates or discussions in chat is selfish to the rest of those people which is why I say, SAVE IT FOR THE FORUM. Its the same as all those people using the trade channel to talk about stuff other then items they want to trade. It is disrespectful to the others in the channel who want to use it for what its intended purpose is. There is no difference.

[Tankgrl]

Fueling debates in guild chat is a disturbance to the rest of the guild and selfish to do. Everyone has opinions, everyone has the right to disagree with those opinions, but what you do not have a right to do is fight and debate about who is right and wrong in the presence of 30-40 other people who happen to be online at the same time. No 2 people own guild chat, its shared with everyone else in the guild online at the time, thats the point im trying to make here. Starting these debates or discussions in chat is selfish to the rest of those people which is why I say, SAVE IT FOR THE FORUM. Its the same as all those people using the trade channel to talk about stuff other then items they want to trade. It is disrespectful to the others in the channel who want to use it for what its intended purpose is. There is no difference.

/Agreed

In my opinion, I like to use Voice com once in a while. It adds another fun element to the game. It is not necessarly a must for our raid because CT_RA is so awesome but it is a nice mod to have availble never the less.

[un4]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, why is this even a problem?
Sounds like some people were careless with their words.  We all do that, like it or not, so don't let it get to you