Threat - understanding threat and aggro

[Arcdelad]

We as a guild spend a lot of time and energy on watching Omen, KTM...talking about things like feign death, cower, and soul shatter, and how tanks can hold aggro better.

I think, though, few of us truly and deeply understand how threat is developed and how the mechanics of the game, ie all the math, works to make threat and aggro gain do what it does.

Attached is a link to a GREAT site. IMO everyone should read it..it sheds a lot of light on why threat does what it does, what moves, attacks, talents, etc gain or shed aggro and such. This was written by the person who developed KTM threatmeter.

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php

[LastDyingBreath]

I KNO ALL ABOUT THRET. I HITS TEH BAD MAN WITH MANGEL AND I HAS THRET.

[Luise]

I read the site Arc- it doesn't seem to give Mortal Strike any mention at all. Does this mean it has no or little threat? Also it says that crits don't produce extra threat..Did I interpret that wrong or is that true?
So  I can Mortal strike with crits and not cause extra threat? (Not that I cause much threat at present )

[Arcdelad]

Ill dig into mortal strike luise and post when i find an answer (ive never played a warrior myself, so im not sure).

What it means by crits not producing extra threat is that a crit, just by virtue of it being a crit, does not add any threat bonus onto the attack. HOWEVER...the extra damage caused BY a crit does add threat, meaning a crit will generate more threat than a non-crit due to higher damage, but not due to it simply being a crit.

[Arcdelad]

Some of the key points I took from this are:

- its much harder to steal aggro from the tank if you are ranged as opposed to melee. I think hunters, moonkin, mages, warlocks, etc should always try and be as far away from a mob as possible or at least out of the melee zone. If themob moves close to you, do the tank a favor an reposition out of melee.

- Feign Death is by far the best aggro reducer in the game - it wipes you completely from the aggro table. I have seen so many hunters pull aggro lately, but given that you have FD, this really should never happen. Even if you hit FD well before you got to even 90% of the tanks aggro, it would reset you and put you so far down on the list you wouldnt even have a shot in hell of stealing aggro. It shouldnt even mess with your damage production if thats what you are worries about - I know I can FD and arcane shot almost with the same click on my hunter...you dont have to stay on the ground for long, or even hit the ground if you time it right - just let FD clear aggro and then keep go balls out DPS.

- Taunt puts the taunter at the level of the person who is holding aggro. This means we should be able to switch off tanks really easy, especially in fights like the Prince in kara where the MT is prone to death. If you are a warrior or druid OT on a boss fight, you need to be ready to taunt should the MT get in a bind or dies...there isnt any excuse for letting a boss run rampart if you are there ready to pick it up with a simple taunt.

- Cower / Feint...since these take a set amount of aggro off your total, and not a general reduction (like blessing of salvation) a cat druid or a rogue should be spamming it whenever the CD is up to chip away at your threat number. Yes, we do have innate threat reduction, BUT we are also melee, meaning its easier for us to steal aggro, especially since we are criting with high damage attacks all the time.

Those are just a few key points off the top of my head..again, everyone should read that article. It really will help us all run smoother raids and 5 mans.

[Grendeel]

Nice read Arc.   Very informative.   One thing i learned from it, is why soul shatter doesn't always work.   Its considered a shadow spell and can be resisted from what i read.   

[Threlin]

Fantastic information for a new druid like me, Arc. Understanding the mechanics of threat will help us all, of course...but especially those of us who are new to tanking and off-tanking. I picked up much useful info that I didn't have before. 

Thanks again for your efforts!

[Nixphire]

Someone told me that Arc is a tank?

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[Buzan]

Very nice read, I can honestly say there were a few things I didn't know before.

[Nixphire]

Very nice read, I can honestly say there were a few things I didn't know before.

I think so too, there might be some creative ways of pulling. For instance using a high aggro tool like searing pain, then use the warrior's taunt to get a nice spring board on aggro. However the lock would have to hold back a bit before starting to dps.

[khader]

Some of the key points I took from this are:

- Taunt puts the taunter at the level of the person who is holding aggro. This means we should be able to switch off tanks really easy, especially in fights like the Prince in kara where the MT is prone to death. If you are a warrior or druid OT on a boss fight, you need to be ready to taunt should the MT get in a bind or dies...there isnt any excuse for letting a boss run rampart if you are there ready to pick it up with a simple taunt.

Prince and most other bosses in TBC are immune to taunt so this won't work.   Due to the mechanics of the prince fight it is practically impossible for an OT tank to take over should the MT die.  It may be possible in the very early part of phase 1 but after that the DPS group will overtake the OT on the threat list.  A fury warrior or feral druid could put probably sustain enough DPS to stay high enough on the threat list but then trying to tank Prince with DPS gear would last only a few moments.

[usonian]

Taunt puts the taunter at the level of the person who is holding aggro

Taunt puts you at the top of the aggro list for the duration of the taunt, not indefinitely.  When the taunt wears of you'll return to your previous level of aggro, plus any gains you've made while the taunt was active.  So you can't be at the bottom of the aggro list, use taunt, and then have aggro over everyone else for the rest of the fight.

It is VERY difficult, almost impossible, to keep someone just below the Main Tank's aggro for boss fights who could also remain a viable tank if the MT drops.  Not only do you lose a DPS spot for a possible backup tank, but the healers have to be able to switch targets after they've been focusing on the MT and be able to save the OT from massive damage.  There are plenty of other things to focus on to beat bosses rather than having a 'backup tank' IMO.

[Arcdelad]

he is immune to taunt?

hehehe...whoops guess i wasted that attack...

hard to see the "immune" flash up when the big guy is so in your face...at least you can look through his legs to see infernals...

[Arcdelad]

According to that info, you get threat equal to the person who has aggro and after the three seconds it DOESNT lower...

I agree that you waste DPS keeping on OT on staff for a wipe...but I am also thinking of kara runs where we have a prot pally and a prot warrior, but we only need one of them to tank a boss. I ran arena long enough with a prot. warrior to know prot specs trying to DPS arent doing much damage, so losing their DPS is negligible. With a druid thats not the case - my spec allows me to tank well or DPS with the best of em just by switching my gear around...

[usonian]

According to that info, you get threat equal to the person who has aggro and after the three seconds it DOESNT lower...

I'm not sure how true that is, I want to see where they got the information from or how they tested it.  Even if it is true there are a number of reasons why it doesn't help with bosses:

1. Like Khader said, most bosses are immune to taunt.
2. It would put you at the level of the highest person's aggro, which would not be the tank if he/she is dead.  If that person is a DPS class, good luck keeping up after taunt wears off.
3. Being the backup, you would have to switch to defensive stance / bear form and get the taunt off before the target goes bananas on your DPS group, which with bosses is usually a one hit, one kill situation that happens in the blink of an eye.
4. A backup tank wearing Def gear 'just in case' is a waste of a DPS slot you can't afford on most boss fights.  Swtiching from DPS to Def gear also adds more time to the equation.
5. ALL DPS would have to stop attacking the instant the MT dies to let the OT pick it up and build enough excess threat to counteract the DPS needed to down the boss, meaning tricky healing target switches, more mana dumped into healing, and time wasted waiting for aggro.

The amount of coordination required to pull off a tank switch like this even IF taunt worked on bosses is so ridiculous that it shouldn't even be considered an option worth strategizing.  Unless Blizz specifically designs boss fights for tank switching (a la Kurinax), we're better off focusing on what else to do correctly instead of relying on emergency clutch miracles.

No offense intended:)