Raiding and totems..what to use

[Grendeel]

I really cant come close to explaining enhancement shamys  so im just going to link to the elistist jerks guide

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13297-enhance_shaman_collected_works_theorycraft_vol_i/

Taking from the discussion earlier, this part explains what type of totems to use in groups/raid.

4 Enhancement Shaman in a group
4.1 How to choose totems
In a 5-man party your DPS is generally limited by the threat that your tank can produce. The most efficient way to increase small party DPS is to provide the tank with more threat. Totems should be chosen that compliment the tank, rather than the rest of the party, even it if means only 1 player is receiving benefit from the totem. Priority of totems always goes to the tank in small groups.

Warrior and Paladin tanks should always receive Windfury, unless they are severely under-geared and need the extra armor/dodge just to survive. Rationale for using GoA for a Warrior or Paladin tank should never be to provide crit. Feral druids that are tanking should always be given GoA.

In a raid setting this becomes slightly more complicated as bastardized groups are thrown together. Recommendation is to follow this set of rules:

Rule 1 - If you are ever in doubt about which Air totem should be used, your raid leader has probably failed to put together a complimentary group. Reference the Group Compositions That Work section for details on putting groups together. Encourage proper group compositions for maximum benefit to the raid.

Rule 2 - If a DPS warrior is in your group, he needs Windfury for his rage feedback mechanism. Windfury provides a larger DPS gain to a DPS warrior than any other totem to any other class.

Rule 3 - If you are in the Main Tank group, the warriors should be given Windfury unless it is a non-threat limited fight where survivability is more important. Prot Paladin tanks will benefit more from Wrath of Air and Feral Druids that are tanking should obviously receive Grace of Air.

Rule 4 - If there is no Warrior, but 2 or more Combat Sword Rogues are in the group, they will benefit slightly more from Windfury from increased opportunities for Sword Spec procs, than from Grace of Air.

Rule 5 - If your group has no warrior, and 2 or more Feral Druids or Hunters, Grace of Air is the totem of choice.


In a group of 5 it seems to say  either a pally or warrior tank should get WF totem all the time, while in a raid setting the Pally tank should be getting Wraith of Air  (as seen in Rule 3). Wraith of Air wasnt in the discussion at all....it was WF or GoA .

It also says (rule 2) that a dps warrior should get WF totem

Rule 4 covers a combat spec rogue in the group.  This one i question.  I assumed rogues would go for faster weapons if possible.  Im guessing this rule applies to combat rogues with weapons as close to 2.7 speed as possible.  Simply because, if WF is used and u have a 1.5 speed weapon, this applies:

Weapon Speeds play an important role in maximizing DPS from Windfury procs. The goal is to chain WF procs every 3 seconds, as soon as each cooldown ends. Both the OH and the MH need to be as slow as possible to achieve this(they do not need to be matched in speed, just as slow as you can get it). The idea is to reduce the number of swings made during the time that windfury is on cooldown. Since the cooldown is 3 seconds, weapons speeds are preferred to be close to that speed, generally this means 2.6 - 2.8 under current itemization..........

and

Many shaman will correctly use a slow MH weapon but use a fast OH such as a dagger, generally because its easier to find fast OHs than slow ones. This combination however means that your OH is much more likely to be the first one to hit outside of a WF cooldown and will "steal" the potential chance to proc, placing your main hand on lockdown. In order to maximize the potential for MH procs the OH needs to be as slow as possible.

The image below (click link for the graph) courtesy of Yo! illustrates this principle. You can see that as the MH and OH approach 2.6 speed (arbitrarily chosen as the cut off point for the scale) that the number of WF procs lost to the OH become lower, at around a 45% predicted loss rate. A fast OH with a slow MH combination has a higher rate of loss to the OH, at nearly 55%.

So to me this rule is based on optimizing your weapon speed.  Meaning you would need to have 2 -  2.7ish weapons for rule 4 to apply.  I certainly could be wrong on assuming rogues would go for faster weapons but thats my understanding.   Our rogue used  a 2.6 MH and a 1.5 OH.  I would think the 1.5 weapon would eliminate applying rule 4 to a rogue, making Grace of Air the totem of choice for a rogue.

As for the enhance Shamy, it seems in the rules listed,  their dps isnt a consideration (not sure why).  This is the effect using a WF totem, instead of the weapon application of WF, has on a Shaman

In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.

And lastly we had a feral druid in our group.  WF does nothing for this class and GoA is much better.


Overall in general, with this group make up, i see a definite increase in the warrior dps.  I also see a loss in dps from the druid, rogue and shaman.  Strangely, the rule suggests Wraith of Air trumps all (for the pally tank).


I believe those rules are more for the standard type of raid makeups like the ones listed

Melee Group
Enhancement Shaman (Windfury Totem)
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue/Feral Druid/BM Hunter/MM Hunter/Ret paladin
Fury or MS Warrior

The Melee Group is the top priority to receive an Enhancement Shaman, it is where we provide the most utility.

Tank Hybrid Group
Enhancement Shaman (Windfury Totem)
Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin or Feral Druid
Tree Druid

Hunter/Feral Hybrid Group
Enhancement Shaman (Grace of Air Totem)
Hunter
Hunter
Hunter
Feral Druid

Any comments, opinions, links or whatever would be appreciated.  Im trying to understand this more

[Nasanna]

I don't really understand the argument in this post for WF vs. WOA for paladins. I think WOA would be better since so much of their threat comes from their spell damage and I've even had a few paladin tanks ask for WOA in place of WF. But I have no numbers to back this up.

I don't know a lot about rogues either. But in 5 mans they generally use poisons and forget about WF so I'll drop GOA. If your rogues pay attention, sure, drop WF. Also, rogues do not need slow offhands to proc WF. Only shamans can proc WF on their offhand, the totem only enchants your main hand. So in the case of rule 4, it doesn't matter what their offhand is. I'm not really sure why they talk about using the totem as the shaman's mainhand enchant. The weapon enchant is far better than the totem for a shaman.

Windfury Weapon   Rank 5
Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind.  Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 445 extra attack power.  Lasts 30 minutes.

Windfury Totem   Rank 5
Summons a Windfury Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster.  The totem enchants all party members main-hand weapons with wind, if they are within 20 yards.  Each hit has a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 445 extra attack power.  Lasts 2 min.

Generally, I use whichever air totem people will benefit most from. I'll use flametongue totem if I don't have WF out so that a warrior or paladin can get a weapon enchant. The damage it does is also modified by the person's spellpower so it's decent for paladins. But if we have a warrior tank, for example, 3 mages, and a healer, I'll drop WOA unless the tank can't keep aggro- then I drop WF.

And I do think its odd that they don't consider the shaman in these situations at all... if you have 3 combat sword rogues, a feral druid and the shaman in a group, I'd say go for GOA because it benefits everyone, not just the rogues.

So I guess I'd just drop whichever is best for the group unless the tank really really needs a certain totem for tanking/mitigation.

[usonian]

I will say that I saw a definite increase in my DPS after WF was dropped.  Before WF, Apolla, Airtotem and I were all about equal as far as damage output, about 17-18% of the total raid each.  After WF was dropped Apolla went up to about 23%, I was at 21% and airtotem was about 17%.

Like this write-up says, our DPS warrior definitely benefited the most from WF and I know that I did too.  Had Apolla not been there I wouldn't have been opposed to GoA if it helped others, but you can't deny the effectiveness of WF when a DPS warrior and rogue are doing almost half the raid damage.

I think in the situation we had in Kara on saturday where the pally tank had no problems with aggro, WF was the right choice to increase DPS.  Totem selection and group makeup are always going to be different though so the information in this write-up is valuable to know when making decisions in the future.  Now that we're getting more 70 shaman in the guild we should definitely pay attention to the benefits of their totems when running the 10 and 25 man raids, they can be a huge help.

[Grendeel]

Those stats definitely substantiate using WF in a group consisting of a dps warrior, combat specd rogue, elemental shamy, resto shamy, and holy Pally.  No one in that group suffers a damage loss without GoA.  You got the best air totem for all classes involved (WF and WoA).   I wonder what effect having 2 sets of shamy totems would be for dps output.

The issue we discussed in the raid involved a feral druid, enhance shamy, pally tank, dps warior and combat specd rogue.  Our druid and myself would definitely suffer a dps loss with WF used as opposed to GoA.  Is it appropriate to suffer that dps loss to increase a dps warriors damage significantly (according to elitist jerks) and a combat spec rogue marginally (according to elitist jerks).  That question still remains unanswered and im still unsure what totem to use.  I guess given the results of the change on the run, the answer would be.....dont use the orginal group makeup

As well i am more confused as to what to use in the tank group.  Seems WoA should be used with a pally tank, thus sacrificing dps from others in the group.  I know on several fights (on my lock), i have to wait some time before starting dps, or stop casting during the fight.   Any tank in any group can always hold aggro...if the dpsers let him.  Would those situations go away if we used WoA?


Clearly i dont know a lot about this since i thought a WF totem applied to both weapons so im still searching for answers.

[JohnnieRat]

WTT WF Totem for Might

[khader]

As a tank its hard for me to say I notice a difference with the various totems.  Might be different for others so what  follows may or may not apply to others.

Instance/Kara
The biggest issue I have right now is that I out gear all 5 person instances(normal and heroic) and much of kara.  This means lots of incoming damage is mitigated and reduces available rage.  My DPS is really low and very little threat is generated from just white damage attacks.

WF helps with a little more damage but since I do so little damage already its not really producing that much more which in turn means only a small increase in rage and threat.

GoA is bad for me.  Means more damage mitigated which means less rage generation.  Increased crit chance on tiny DPS not a big help to rage or threat generation - certainly not gonna help keep threat above DPS classes geared to the same level as me.

Lower rage means less threat and DPS has to give me a bigger head start.

25 person raid
With our push into 25 man content, I don't have issues with rage generation due to the massive damage the mobs can dish out.  For trash mobs WF is probably the most helpful for the small increase in damage(read threat and rage).  Boss fights will depend on the particular fight - Gruul would be GoA, Hydross would be WF.

ZA is special as the mobs are in between kara and 25 person raid difficulty. I've also only been there once so hard to say what is really helpful or not.

With 2.4 coming out and the instance difficulty being somewhere around ZA or above, I'd expect that WF will be helpful on trash and boss fights will depend. Just like 25 person raids.  This will change as I gear up with badge gear that is equal to T5/T6.

[JohnnieRat]

From a ret pally's point of view... ah our opinion doesn't matter lol.
But to be super cereal, WF is amazing for us since it can proc SoCasino as well. In the limited times I've gotten WF from a shammy,  I have definitely seen my scrolling damage say 4 hits, 4 crits, 8k dmg or so. But that being the outlying stat and all it isn't as relevent.
I have grown more and more fond of GoA tho and prefer it over WF (yes my DPS is better w/ WF) simply because it is a way better raid totem. I also prefer enchants/effects that are constant rather than procs. The same reason I have Savagery rather than Mongoose... the 70AP is always there rather than an undependable proc (Alliance pallies need Seal of Blood!!!!). I'm still debating on Executioner since it's really only awesome when you ahve a bunch of Armor Pen allready stacked up.
Long story short... <3 GoA

[Air]

WoA > Windfury for tankadins.  The tankadin would need a large substantial amount of spell damage, over 1k SD to have windfury overtake WoA.  With WoA, a tankadin can put a wizard oil on for a spell damage boost of around 140.

Problem is its still not very clear, even Elitist Jerks and Maintankadin forums aren't clear.  This was the best I could find, http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=6883&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=windfury

It would be better to have a resto shaman with a tankadin dropping WoA.  And a enhancement shaman in with any melee dps.

For tankadins I think windury may be used on certain fights where the tankadin is gonna loose threat.  A couple fights I'm thinking of is Maiden,Big bad wolf, or 2nd SL boss.  Drop a windfury totem and have the tankadin seal/judge vengeance.  With windfury it should be enough for the pally to keep the vengeance stack going.

One of the reasons why tanks don't like to have windfury, since it increases our chance to swing our weapon.  It'll increase the chance that the mob will parry our attack.  This can cause mobs to hit 4-5 times for 5k each in a matter of 3-4 seconds.  That can end up being 20-30k damage in say 3-4 seconds.  Impossible for a healer to heal threw.

Here's example I found at EJ in the prot warrior thread, http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/

24:03.6 Methos's Heroic Strike was parried by Azgalor.
24:03.7 Azgalor hits Methos for 7874 (867 blocked)
24:04.9 Methos's Devastate was dodged by Azgalor.
24:05.2 Methos's Heroic Strike missed Azgalor.
24:06.1 Azgalor hits Methos for 6740 (997 blocked) (1742 absorbed)
24:06.6 Methos's Devastate was parried by Azgalor.
24:07.2 Azgalor attacks. Methos parries.
24:09.5 Azgalor attacks. Methos parries.
24:11.1 Tauren Warrior attacks. Azgalor parries.
24:12.0 Azgalor attacks. Methos parries.
24:12.9 Methos crits Azgalor for 421
24:14.2 Azgalor hits Methos for 7176 (691 blocked)
24:15.0 Tauren Warrior attacks. Azgalor parries.
24:15.3 Tauren Warrior attacks. Azgalor parries.
24:15.7 Azgalor hits Methos for 10247 (561 blocked)
24:15.9 Horde Grunt's Strike was parried by Azgalor.
24:16.2 Horde Peon attacks. Azgalor parries.
24:16.2 Azgalor hits Methos for 9973
24:17.1 Methos dies.

A quote about GoA and windfury,

Parry mechanics also imply that any warrior that is not parry immune will actually increase their damage taken if they use windfury totem. This is indeed the case. Combined with the effects of increased armor and dodge avoidance from Grace of Air (GoA) totem, GoA makes for a much better mitigation totem. However, the reality is that windfury totem is often significantly superior in many situations due to other party members, and aggro. But keep this in mind when you need to decrease incoming damage.

[Airtotem]

Great post, all of it is accurate info, I wouldnt disagree with any of it, except 1 thing, I think if you were to ask rogues, 8/10 would say they prefer WF, but that is just my opinion.  I'll see if I can dig out a post in the rogue forums.

Heres the rule of thumb, IMHO:  And again, I dont read Elitist Jerks too often, I just go by the numbers I see and the perferences of some of the players I have grouped with in the past.

With regards to WoA for pallys, yes I agree, they should get priority, but Alloura can spin the entire Kara instance around his finger half asleep.  He doesnt need any help with buffs, IMO, now othe other hand, if he was tanking the adds on the dragonhawk boss in ZA, then WoA no questions.

With 2 melee, any combination of a Ret pally, Rogue or Warrior, I would say drop WF, especially if you use a 2H or a slow weapon, and especially if they are already contributing significant damage to the raid.  The slow weapon hits for bigger white damage, which in turn allows for even bigger WF crits, but overall, from my experience, the speed of the weapon plays little part in the decision on whether or not to use WF. 

By the time we got to Maiden, I noticed that the melee group was carrying the DPS, but specifically Apolla and Apate.  Simply put, given the same scenario, same group makeup: Tol, Apolla, enh shammy, Apate, and Apolla, you will get more overall raid DPS dropping WF than dropping air.  Even though, technically, Air benefits more people, the mob/boss will die faster giving the rogue and warrior WF.  This is not the case in all situations; I think an enhc shammy, assassination rogue and/or feral druid could produce more raid DPS with GoA, but with our specific group, with the same numbers that were showing that day, I thought that a switch to give the melee WF would improve overall DPS, which in turn, it did.

My first character was a druid, and I often grouped with melee when I was raiding, and when I was tanking VR while I was on the highest threat list, Air was not dropped for me, WF was dropped because we had a great group with a rogue, fury warrior, ret pally, and enh shammy. I was geared enough where the healers had no problems keeping me alive, and the shammy and I took a back-seat to increase the overall DPS of the raid.  I would always LOVE when I got air dropped for me when I was DPSing, it makes a huge difference as a kitty druid, but not as big a difference as WF makes to warriors and rogues.

What I just said may or may not correct,  just my opinion. 

[LastDyingBreath]

let me simplify it for you.

[JohnnieRat]

So Panz... you gonna cough up that WF totem for me? I got some imp Might with your name on it.

[un4]

Do WF attacks reset our weapon timers?  If so, that's just an extra MH sword spec proc for us rogues.  If it also resets OH, I'll poison your drink if you drop it 

[JohnnieRat]

since it attacks instantly as if there is no time between the attacks, i would assume it doesn't reset the timers.

[Fleecy]

WF totem is only applied to main hand weapon, shouldn't effect your OH un4.

I will admit that during the raid I was frustrated because the groups were mixed around and I begin being pretty much voluntold that I was dropping WF... I personally didn't see the point because we had Tolwen in our group, therefore Myself, Keves and Tolwen all suffered b/c of WF being dropped.  The whole reason that I moved Keves back to our group was for the mana regen after we had a change in the first group....after that the groups changed again, so idk... Uso did ask me to drop WF during Shade and I didn't mind that b/c we wanted to down him asap...

I mean I honestly don't mind for me and another healer not to have wrath, so long as we have our mana regen, it's not a big deal.  I think my biggest problem was that our OT was not getting the benefit of GoA, pretty much no benefit from my totems at all...WF + Mana spring + Strength of Earth... so out of the 3 totems dropped he got the benefit of one totem...

I know he said he doesn't care what totems I was dropping, but I did... I guess I was just frustrated with begin pretty much voluntold as to the totems I was dropping...

[JohnnieRat]

Usually you can just drop what you want... like in 5 man groups and people insist that they want might rather than salv.