Just give us 2 specs already...

[usonian]

While I was replying to Lyn's post about the new beta Rogue changes (http://forum.twilightonalex.com/index.php?topic=5697.0) I noticed some odd additions to the talent trees for WotLK.  Blizz is adding talents and abilities into trees that don't quite belong based on the inherent strengths of each tree for our class, and it feels like it is watering down each specialization.

If you don't know already, the three trees of Rogue talents are Assasination / Combat / Subtlety.  Combat has always been focused on increasing sustained PvE raid damage, Subtlety has always been focused on burst damage and stealth for PvP, and the Assasination tree is usually a support for the previous two without a really strong identity of it's own (mutilate is definitely the weaker of the three now but I see that changing in WotLK).  What I'm seeing in the new trees is strong PvP abilities being placed into the bottom of the Combat tree and strong PvE abilities in the bottom of the Subtlety tree. 

Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about, starting with the Combat Tree:

Nerves of Steel - now it increases resistance to stuns / fear, a somewhat useful talent since rogues fight up close and are susceptible to these effects that can decrease DPS in a raid.  Even now this is just a filler talent but the proposed change will make it decrease damage taken while stunned and feared, obviously only worth the points for PvP and it's deep into a PvE tree.

Imp Sprint - 50/100% chance to remove snares.  Again, a marginal talent for PvE for getting back to DPS if you get caught by a nova or something, but mainly a PvP talent that was only in Tier 3 before.  Why put it deeper into a PvE spec?

Throwing Specialization - a new talent increasing range of deadly throw and adding a chance to interrupt spell casting.  How many bosses can be interrupted, and even if they can be, how many rogues are going to be further away that they would need this?  Definitely only a PvP talent but it's in the 8th Tier of Combat and any PvP-minded rogue already gets a bonus from gear to interrupt casts with deadly throw.

Unfair Advantage - a new talent that causes you to strike back after you dodge.  If you're raiding as a rogue you stand behind the target, so you're never dodging and this is usless for raiding.

Killing Spree - the new 50 point talent.  you basically shadowstep to 5 different targets close to you and attack each one every .5 seconds.  I'm already paranoid about breaking CC in raids, why would I want to use this?

In the Subtlety tree there is only one odd move that makes no sense, everything else still looks to be focused on PvP.  There is a new lvl 75 rogue talent called Tricks of the Trade that allows us to transfer the threat of all attacks for 6 seconds to a target (the tank, or someone we don't like ) when used and has a 30 second cooldown.  This is a huge change that will actually bring something useful to the rest of a raid from rogues other than raw DPS.  However, the improvement to this ability reduces the cooldown by 5/10 sec, is called Filthy Tricks and is located in TIER 9 of the SUBTLETY tree.  Why would anyone specced this deep into Subtlety (obviously for PvP) want to put points into a purely PvE talent?  I'm baffled.

It seems like Blizz is trying to give a little bit of flexibility to swap roles from PvP to PvE and vice versa, but I think what that does is make all the trees weak and I'd personally prefer to have three trees highly focused once you get to the tier 7,8 & 9 talents and be given the ability to switch between specs.  Currently I have a focused raid damage spec that is full Combat with some Assasination, and I respec to full Subtlety with Assasination to be competitive in arenas.  If I'm going deep into combat for PvE I'm not going to waste points on PvP abilities in the higher tiers and same with my PvP spec.

I realize this is just beta and things can change, but I don't like what I'm seeing in the direction Blizz is taking with these trees.  With every expansion there are more and more talents and abilities added to our trees yet they shy away from being highly specialized by putting weak talents in the higher tiers.  We're up to 11 tiers of talents now and I'd like to feel that sort of investment will make my character really good at doing one thing, not a mediocre blend of mismatched talent.  Now that our trees are getting so long, and the importance of both PvP and PvE are playing such strong roles in the game, I think it is time for Blizz to consider some sort of option to have multiple specs. 

[Arcdelad]

bitch bitch bitch...didnt you see the stabby stabby animated JPG from capn?

[usonian]

whatever Mr. I can tank AND DPS with one spec:P

(btw that gif is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time)

[Lynette]

Your interpretation of the proposed beta changes for rogues has been quite educational for me, Uso.  Thank you.

For some time, I have been disappointed with rogues in the PvE world in which I play. I add nothing in the way of raid or group buffs & my dps isn't where it should be imo.  Some of this is due to my own fault at sticking with daggers (having to stay behind targets while managing energy & cps closely is damn near impossible much of the time in raids), but much of it is due to the fact I don't want to PvP for end game swords so I can respec to combat swords.  When I think about it, the biggest thing I bring to raids are my feet (for kicking).

I think that I will be changing mains when the next expansion hits, even though I will level up my rogue just in case they get some love (plus, I'll want her cooking, fishing, and alchemy skills to progress).  Most likely, my druid will be my main.  Their versatility is too damn impressive and they are a blast to play.

It's too bad, as I loved playing a rogue for so long.  We'll see what Blizz does in the next release, but I am not holding my breath.

[Nixphire]

It's too bad, as I loved playing a rogue for so long.  We'll see what Blizz does in the next release, but I am not holding my breath.

I have to say the best thing I loved about being a rogue is the ability to stealth. That is one of a rogues best abilities. It's what I loved about PVPing with it. You can control what situations you get in and out of. I know it took a while to get used to a mage, especially since they are so squishy, I almost have no control when I'm going to be fighting and not.
That is what always made me love PVPing with a rogue.

Has nothing to do with your love or loathing of getting the swords, just my love with some parts of rogues (well my loathing of rogues too I guess when I'm on my mage  )

[usonian]

If you decide to stick with your druid as your main I would definitely recommend playing around with PvP on your rogue.  Personally I don't have time to raid constantly and keep ahead of the gear curve to be a top-tier DPS rogue so I get my kicks from PvP.  I can schedule arena time with friends anytime and spend however long I want playing, so it is much more flexible than committing to a 3-4 hour raid.  It's also really fun playing with the different Subtlety and Assasination builds.  Shadowstep is a blast and Mutilate is really fun even if it's slightly underpowered.  I think the time you've weathered using daggers will finally payoff in WotLK since it seems like Blizz is buffing Mutilate and Backstab / Ambush specs.  When I finally decided to stray from combat and experiment with the other trees, I started to enjoy and respect all the intricacies of playing a rogue and I think it's helped me to be a better player overall.  I think you'll find a lot more enjoyment in your rogue once you release her from the pressure of having to DPS and start changing her spec for fun.

[Lynette]

You both are probably right on the mark.  PvPing has just never been my thing - going back to the days when Ultima Online was first relased (late 90s) when I tried the PvP for the first time. 

I remember arming a chest with an explosive and hiding in the distance.  A newbie came running up, opened the chest and died from the explosion.  Then someone else came running up and looted his corpse (In UO, all corpses were fair game - even players).  I felt so bad that I gave him my stuff and some gold to boot.  I haven't pvped since.

I have an incredible joy of raiding and know that my raiding days are numbered (hopefully not for quite some time tho).  Hence my focus on raid gear & specs.

I might try the mutilate approach on the t5 raids to see if they add some value to the raid & to get a feel for it down the road.  Aside from that or finding some swords to use, I don't know what else I can do to boost Lyn's value at this point.  It's a real drag to never be able to exceed 1000 dps in a raid or provide anything beyond a timely stun or poison. 

I'm convinced that Bliz sees rogues as a PvP class these days, and I see nothing for WotLK that makes me think things will be different next year.

[usonian]

If you have extra badges laying around, get the reward fist set [item]Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality[/item] & [item]Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery[/item].  Fist spec might be 1-2% lower overall DPS than Sword Spec, but those weapons put out more damage than any sword that is in our loot range now for raiding.  You have much better gear than I do on Apate; if you switched to combat fists with those weapons you could be doing much more damage.  The mechanics of raiding with Fists and Swords are exactly the same so you can at least try out a combat spec without the positional, energy, and CP restrictions of backstab and ambush if you feel like a change of pace. 

[un4]

Sometime I'm going to catch you online when you can't run, and you and I are going to PvP together, Lyn.

I love daggers.  I love ambush, backstab, and the mentality of being sub, but dagger DPS sucks.  My gear sucks, too, but my swords DPS is around 5-6% higher than it is with my daggers (which are of better quality than my swords).  I mostly PvP, so I'm looking forwards to playing around with the new talents, but I hate how the essentially required stuff from the subtlety tree will prevent me from getting the top-tier combat talents which are, imo, better than a lot of the sub ones.

[Melonni]

Uso is correct. For many rogues, [item]Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality[/item] is your strongest main-hand until the MH Warglaive (S3/S4 Arena weapons excluded) speccing combat fists or combat fists+swords. For off-hands, (according to the personal spreadsheet I was using) [item]Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery[/item] is slightly better than [item]Merciless Gladiator's Slicer[/item], which is slightly better than [item]Akil'zon's Talonblade[/item]. 20/41/0 if you're combat fists (or swords - not both), or 16/45/0 if you're speccing fists + swords.

(All purely directed at raiding)

[un4]

The nice thing about arena swords is how they give hit rating.

[Belandand]

I would totally agree that the 2.4 badge vendor fists are the best weapons a rogue can get until they are frewuntly doing BT (in some cases, hyjal). Pretty much no matter how good a dagger rogues daggers are, combat daggers can't out dps swords/fists (assuming rogues of equal skill). The reason lies in the fact that backstab, a dps staple of combat daggers, is a highly situational move. I can't tell you how many times I would get frustrated in raids when I would have to reposition myself every few seconds to get to the mobs back. Combat swords/fists has a 360 degree dps opportunity in that you can be to the mob's back, font (not recommended) or sides and still do very nice damage. Combat daggers has, for all intents and purposes, a 180 degree dps opportunity.

Again, as most rogues know, BC raid encounters are a pain due to moving around a lot. I really hate this as I personally enjoy the fit of daggers and rogues but stay away from daggers entirely because it's so hard to put out competable dps.

[usonian]

It is difficult to argue against the effectivness of a combat build with swords / fists for PvE.  I'm all about the skill required to be a sub rogue for PvP, but for PvE you're working for the greater good of a group and the advantage of sword / fist build is undeniable.  Bosses and mobs always seem to be changing targets, dropping aggro, and running around so you're definitely going to be losing DPS from lack of time on target while you race to get behind for a backstab.  While every melee should ideally be attacking from behind, a combat build gives you a little leeway to keep attacking when you're chasing a boss around.  Unfortunately for dagger rogues, the best weapons available also reflect this spec's dominance:P