Ghostcrawler explains the hybrid class and "tax" on it

[Grendeel]

This has been talked about from time to time.  I thought it would be good to put the sources information out there for all of us

[blizzard]What is a hybrid tax? Why is there a hybrid tax?

I'm going to sticky this since it gets brought up more than almost any other topic.

We only recognize two types of classes for PvE purposes:

Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.

The roles are tank, healing and damage.

In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.

It's the roles that your class lets you do that is important, not how those roles are organized into talent trees. The paladin is one way to organize the trees (a tanking tree, healing tree and melee dps tree) but not the only way. However, there is a reason we don't do this for every class -- it would be boring.

In our design, the pure dps classes (hunter, mage, warlock and rogue) should do slightly higher dps than hybrid damage-dealers all things being equal. All things are rarely equal. Player skill, gear, raid comp, latency, random luck and most importantly the specifics of the encounter will often favor one class, spec or player over another.

The reason we want pures to so slightly higher damage is that pures can only fulfill one role. If your guild or raid has no more need for damage-dealers, there is no way for these classes to raid with you. By contrast, the six other classes always have the option to respec for another role either temporarily or for the long haul.

The Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with whether you can perform multiple roles within a single fight or even within a single raid. It has more to do with the potential for your class to ever fulfill more than one role.

Likewise, the Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with the power of certain buffs or class synergy. We want all classes to bring useful tools to the raid.

Just because you're not interested in doing anything other than damage does not qualify your class as a pure as long as the option to change roles is there. For the pure classes the only option is to reroll. We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure. The hybrid advantage is flexibility.

There is not a "5% rule" that says pures should be 5% higher than hybrids in every circumstance. Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect. The "5% rule" was either something a player suggested that stuck or something we threw out at some point as an example. It isn't a hard and fast rule. We aren't going to provide a hard and fast rule because players would then attempt to invoke that rule every time they thought their damage was too low instead of exploring other ways to improve their character's performance.

This philosophy largely evolved in Wrath of the Lich King and is the design we plan on carrying forward to Cataclysm. In vanilla WoW, every class typically had one role. In BC, we tried to promote other roles for some classes, but we still didn't make everyone play by the same rules. Warriors, and I hate to pick on them, were intended to be the best tank while also deliver dps that we would now label as competitive with rogues. By contrast, druids, paladins, priests and shaman were intended to be competitive healers, but have dramatically lower dps than pures and warriors. Likewise, druids, paladins, priests and shaman brought many unique and powerful buffs that were intended to compensate for their low dps. We spread these buffs out to a much greater degree in Lich King, and plan on refining that implementation for Cataclysm.

TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.


In general, we ask that players focus their feedback more on class mechanics and what is fun or not fun about the classes and not simply on "My dps is too low so you must buff me." [/blizzard]

[Trismus]

Thanks for the post Gren.



I like this strategy... probably because I play a rogue :p

[dharq]

Ah, but see, there's one thing they haven't figured out yet... (and you'd think they would have since vanilla)

In PVP, utility has meaning and is valuable;
In PVE, utility means jack squat.

Given a truly hardcore raiding guild, no one is ever going to take less than the best tank, the best dps, the best healing class. So all that "utility" and "ability to fill various roles" accounts for nothing. Not to mention that just because a class can fill multiple roles, it doesn't mean the player behind the keyboard has the skill or gear necessary to fill those roles.

Basically, they're saying their game design is based on an assumption that their very game has proven wrong. It's the rare guild like Twilight that actually raids successfully without selecting "best" roles for each raid. Powergaming guilds? Never gonna happen. And messing over "hybrids" to try to accomodate that just messes over hybrids.

I guess on the upside though, every healing class is now a hybrid... So all healing classes are always going to be equal, right?

And don't get me wrong. I love rogues, hunters, warlocks, and mages. But the reason to play a class should be enjoyment of the class mechanics, right? Not because they do more damage than something else.

[Sethrow]

Tris you have to ask blizz for a tank tree for rogues next xpac!

[Grendeel]

Ah, but see, there's one thing they haven't figured out yet... (and you'd think they would have since vanilla)

In PVP, utility has meaning and is valuable;
In PVE, utility means jack squat.

Given a truly hardcore raiding guild, no one is ever going to take less than the best tank, the best dps, the best healing class. So all that "utility" and "ability to fill various roles" accounts for nothing. Not to mention that just because a class can fill multiple roles, it doesn't mean the player behind the keyboard has the skill or gear necessary to fill those roles.

Basically, they're saying their game design is based on an assumption that their very game has proven wrong. It's the rare guild like Twilight that actually raids successfully without selecting "best" roles for each raid. Powergaming guilds? Never gonna happen. And messing over "hybrids" to try to accomodate that just messes over hybrids.

I guess on the upside though, every healing class is now a hybrid... So all healing classes are always going to be equal, right?

And don't get me wrong. I love rogues, hunters, warlocks, and mages. But the reason to play a class should be enjoyment of the class mechanics, right? Not because they do more damage than something else.

People could go on forever, back and forth, with reasons why or why not.  I believe there is an extensive amount going on right now in that thread.


In my opinion this is necessary.  Those 4 pure dps classes would cease to exist if not for the superior damage potential...other than the casual person enjoying playing them.   Why would anyone bring one of those 4 on a raid if they can bring another class that equals their dps, and can also change specs and heal, tank or dps on par with the best.   Simply put they wouldnt.

As far as hard core raiders go, they will still bring the "hybrid" classes the way its designed right now.   No healer can match the hots of a druid.  Straight up one time cast healing, nothing matches a paladin.  Priests have some wicked aoe healing.  As it stands now there is always a role for each type.

As for other classes, there is some utility that warrants bringing them as well.   Hardcore raiding still does.   Nothing tops the added dps an enhancement shammy brings to a raid.   Elemental shammy is a huge buff for casters, albeit it is surpassed by a demo lock at high end gear.  A boomkin will forever be allowed to raid because of the 5 percent crit bonus.  Ret pallies,i have discovered recently bring big utility to a raid.  Something like a 13 percent damage increase (Allo can explain it better). 

As it stands now there is room for every class and spec...almost.... in hardcore raiding guilds.  Certainly room for every class with at least one type of spec.  Anything less serious than a hardcore raiding guild allows for all classes and all specs right now.

A couple dont really get into the hardcore raids, like a feral cat (not sure about now...some put out insane damage ) or an elemental shammy (demo locks replace them).

Like i said, those "pure" dps classes would cease to exist if they didnt have a slight advantage.   I guess if you argue that making the damage equal for all, then you would need to make the healing equal for all and the tanking ability for all.  The heck with it, ban them all and everyone play a paladin.  lol

[Darkstar]

Ya, ret paladins bring both good dps and buffs to the raid.

From the ret tree, I can give the raid 3 major buffs, 3% increased dmg, 3% increased crit, and 3% increased haste on both casts and melee.

Coupled with that, my judgments of the Wise also restores mana raid wide by a certain tick, i think 2%?  Granted the seals of healing or mana regen on the boss help melee / casters.

I'm sure most of ya knew this already, just clarifying for those that don't so gren has a better picture 

Now as for the pure / hybrid dps issue....I fully expect a Rouge or similar pure dps class to best me on the meters, but i'll sure give em a run for their money 

Pick up the slack tris and mijo!

[JohnnieRat]

Hybrids have lower DPS?

[Trismus]

Utility in this sense means buffs, Dharq, not utility such as the Rogue Subtlety tree.



On a heroic training dummy I can pump out around 4k dps, unbuffed.

On a 25 man I push around 6k, up to 7k if there's an enhancement shaman and I have been known to pull 9-10k on single target gimmick fights like XT heart or the Twins.


The difference are the buffs offered by hybrids. Having the sunders from a warrior, kings/might from paladins, horn from DKs, etc, makes a huge difference. In short; hybrid classes are the reason I can spit out such a huge chunk of damage.


In addition, the practical differences are not as large as one would expect. Jrat, Allo, Goz, Doc and others are right up at the top with me on the meters, trying to catch up to Gren :p


Pretty much everyone who raids regularly can hit 5k+ dps without too much stress, on a 25 man (single target). The balancing issues are probably tuned for max gear-level individuals. For example, if you have a Justicebringer, regardless of other gear you can pump out ALOT of damage. A rogue with uld10 or uld25 weapons will be struggling to keep up, at best, with a warrior, dk, or ret with a weapon of that caliber. However, if you stick some 245 ilevel weapons on a rogue with equivalent gear to that dk, ret, or warrior, they will surpass them. Until we are all running with heroic 25 man ToC gear we probably wont notice these effects all that much. Hell, Allo is a ret and I have a HUGE amount of trouble keeping up with his dps; he out-gears me in other regards. Equally, I haven't gone against him in a week or so and I have majorly overhauled my character since then, but I digress.

My point is this: This strategy is probably a good thing, but it doesn't really apply unless we are maxing out gear levels anyways.


-Tris

[dharq]

Well, that doesn't really make sense then either Tris because mages, locks, and hunters all bring raid buffs as well now.

Gren, you said something really interesting about healers...
"As far as hard core raiders go, they will still bring the "hybrid" classes the way its designed right now.   No healer can match the hots of a druid.  Straight up one time cast healing, nothing matches a paladin.  Priests have some wicked aoe healing.  As it stands now there is always a role for each type."

It seems like they've gone to great lengths to do this with healers and tanks so that each is a viable choice. But doesn't that same thing apply to DPS classes as well? I mean, some types of DPS are more viable and desirable for various fights, mimicking the situation that healers are in now? By setting up fights where different damage types are desirable, you've set up a system of "dps hybrids" where different dps specs are desirable, and if they emphasize those different damage types more they could set up those pure dps classes to be more desirable as well.

As for overall damage, I don't really have an opinion one way or another... as long as the tax doesn't become too heavy. All I want is to avoid a repeat situation where old school hybrids are not viable in any role other than healer.

[Tony]

Well, if I can interject here...

Until there is a pure Tank class, and a pure Healing class, there will always be the need for hybrids. Often, those roles are filled out of need rather than want. I honestly don't think that it's fair that hybrids get this tax. I rolled a Paladin to tank. I rolled a DK to dps. Shadow plays a druid to heal, and so on.

What I am getting from this is that since a rogue can't heal, I (as a paladin) can't do as much dps as he/she can.

The biggest problem here is the ability to spec into more than one Tree. I am speced into the Ret tree AND Prot tree. I think that if the Talent Trees were revamped in such a way that if you went Ret, you would lose all ability to heal/tank. That is the only way to fix this. Cause god help us all when Tris gets a healing tree for his rogue.

[Trismus]

I cannot, as a rogue. I have absolutely no utility in any other regard. I am 100% devoted to dps, that's all I do. If you want that buff, you should roll a pure dps class. DPS is superfluous, they are interchangeable, suffer some of the fiercest competition for loot, and have to take responsibility for their own survival in a raid, to a certain extent (unavoidable stuff is the healer's responsibility, but managing aggro, avoiding the various location based hazards, etc is all the responsibility of the dps).

I bring nothing else to the raid. I cannot rez, I cannot heal, I can pop evasion and RNG-tank for a few seconds if I'm lucky. Essentially all I bring to a raid is dps. I deserve to bring more of it than a hybrid class.

If the ret tree wanted to give up kings, might, etc then I wouldn't mind them having the same theorycrafted dps.

If warriors wanted to give up sunder, battleshout, demo shout, etc in fury/arms "     "     "     "     "    "

If Death Knights wanted to give up horn of winter, frost presence, that's 10% AP buff, etc "      "     "     "     "     "



Here's the logic behind it:

As a hybrid class you bring various buffs which increase raid damage, raid survivability, etc. Pure dps do not. I might do 6k dps on a raid, but the enhancement shaman putting up 4k dps is probably responsible for 1000 of my DPS. That's JUST ME. They might have 4k on the meters, but they are probably adding more to the raid by expanding the damage potential of a pure dps class than I am, individually. Does that mean we should stack enhancement shaman? Obviously not, but it means that the amount of damage they are responsible for generating on a mob is significant, and possibly larger than the single-target a rogue/hunter/lock/mage can put out. Same thing goes with other hybrid classes.

Ret paladins, for example, bring buffs such as kings, might, 3% crit increase, etc. However, their single-target dps is higher than an enhancement shaman.


Ultimately the question is not whether or not you are adding more to the raid, it's whether or not your RECOUNT numbers are larger.


Quite frankly, you should not be allowed to throw up as much on the meters as me, because you are adding so much to the raid. Your direct dps should be lower because your indirect makes up for it. Hell, on a heroic dummy I pull around 4k: that means that on a 25-man anywhere from 1500-2500 dps of mine is caused by OTHER CLASSES.

Think of it like this: I am a bomber. I can blow stuff up. However, unless I am loaded with bombs, I am not going to blow anything up. Hybrids provide the bombs. If a hybrid could deliver the bombs as well as provide them, what use would I be?

[Apolla]

Rogues do provide some buffs Tris, although it lowers DPS in a few situations (expose armor instead of other finishers).  This may seem like a bit of an obvious point here but I think that something to consider is-

We raid as a guild and win as a guild.  As long as people do their part and we get the W's, that should be all that matters in my opinion.  This was a good little blue post explaining the hybrid/pure scenario.

[Tony]

I dont want you to think that I disagree with you Tris, I totally agree with you. The point a lot of hybrids are making is that they feel they should be able to do the same. Most of those people have no idea what they are talking about.

[Trismus]

Yeah, they really don't; recount only tracks direct damage, not indirect. Truth is, up to 50% of the damage done by a rogue or other pure dps class comes from other classes.

[un4]

Truth is, up to 50% of the damage done by a rogue or other pure dps class comes from other classes.

Winflurry.